Add starting quests for combat

[Dawidio123]

There is a ton of people complaining about how they got ganked, how they couldn't do anything and how they got their shit kicked in.
And even if you explain to them what they can do better they will just complain and say the system is shit and they should be able to just play without being attacked (non-realistic as far as haven goes).

I propose two starting quests:

One for hand to hand combat against animals (Maybe with a brief description of how combat roughly works, ie. types of openings, etc.):
1. Get 10-20 unarmed combat (Maybe another objective to craft some uac artifacts)
2. Get 10 points of str/agi/con
3. Use an attack (ie. punch)
4. Use a defensive move to drop openings (ie. jump)
5. Defeat an ant (or a fox, but those fuckers run away so probably not a good idea)
6. Learn a combat move
7. Save a new combat deck
8. Craft leather armor (or w/e other piece of armor is easily availble early on)
This quest would lead new players (and vet players get free lp so win/win) to understand how hand-to-hand combat roughly works, how to get new moves and include them in a deck (they'll probably look at all their actual moves and maybe understand mechanics a bit more), and what stats are important for combat. Also they would learn that getting armor is probably a good idea (very important with the new hp changes). Honestly i don't know how to explain to them that animals will run and the best way to fight them is to use a reaggro bot (and probably fight through a cliff) but eh, it's kinda on hunting being shit and not on lack of tutorials.

And another one for running away:
1. Craft 4-5 waterskins and fill them with water (or a bucket, idk)
2. Aggro (or get aggro'd) a boar (They are not supposed to beat it, the quest should be clear that they should run away. And boars can be outrun at speed 3)
3. Lose aggro with an animal (supposedly the said boar)
4. Get a speed boost
5. Craft bunny slippers (also could include finishing forager credo if devs decide to keep the speed bonus from it, maybe also include a snakeskin/leather belt)
6. Chase a bunny with bunny slippers on (possibly while aggro'd by a boar, idk, i think just allowing them to see how much faster they are will be enough)
7. Run at speed 3 (or 4, but it's not always possible) for X amount of time without dropping below that speed (X being higher than the usual amount of time you can run at that speed without consistently drinking water, maybe express the quest as "without dropping below 60% stamina" to make it clearer)
This quest would make players understand that water is VERY important as far as running away goes (so no more, "ooooh faction boys have troll belt full of water i can't run away with my 2 waterskins", bring more water you dumb dumb, you don't need ALL the tools ALL the time), make them understand that they need to stay above a certain level of stamina when running so they don't drop below a certain speed. And also make it clear how important speed boosts and bunny slippers really are (possibly forager credo too) in running away.

Will that solve all the whining on the forums about pvp being unfair and how sprucecaps that got KO'd "couldn't do anything"? No. Will it make it so sprucecaps can reliably run away from each pvp encounter? Probably not.
But it would be a step in a good direction to show those players what mechanics are important as far combat goes, and what they should get so they are able to run away (being able != succeeding at). This way they can at least try to get away and know the tools that are available to them so overtime they might just get better at it.

Edit:
Another quest idea would be a quest you'd get after getting knocked out (either by an animal or by a player):
1. Teleport to your hearthfire (So they won't think about getting up)
2. Apply medicine to a wound
3. Eat up until at 10k energy (word it like "until you are full" so it's lore friendly)
4. Go sleep in a bed (It speeds up wound progression so this one might be kind of a trap since if the wound is not healed and gets infected it might get worse faster, nontheless i think it's good to communicate that sleeping helps with healing)
5. Get rid of a wound/Recover 90% of your max hp

Makes it so getting KO'd seems like a part of the experience, explains that you should apply medicine and eat up after getting KO'd. And also shows that using a bed might be important to healing.

[Clemins]

I haven't even read this yet and I already agree

EDIT:

Now that I've read it, I still agree but... I don't think it will land quite like you (and I) think/hope it would. While the tutorial quests are certainly better than nothing, I don't think it will eliminate the bitching and the moaning. Instead it will be, "oooooh faction boys have a fancy client that makes fighting a playable feature"

And THAT I can actually empathize with, I really wish the vanilla client had similar custom-client features that aid in fighting. Even fighting on Enders is 3x better than fighting on vanilla client. I'm glad that they added a drink button to vanilla (took them long enough); it was a step in the right direction. But if they could add other basic things like:

• Flat-world
• More camera orientation options
• The ability to hide trees/objects
• Much greater detailed openings display (not the weird bar thing they have now)
• Bigger and more obvious stamina bar

There's more I'm not thinking of off the top of my head, but even those alone in vanilla would make PVP more accessible to the general playerbase.

I hope they do still design some form of questline, like stated above, that gives a vague feeling of running away if the bare minimum was taken from this idea. I know a lot of people who play this game don't want/like to pvp, but learning how to run away or simply making new/old(blind) players aware that people WILL be looking to fight them, whether they want to fight or not, is at least somewhat beneficial.

[Sevenless]

yes I like both and think they'll get players thinking in the right direction.

[VDZ]

And another one for running away:
1. Craft 4-5 waterskins and fill them with water (or a bucket, idk)
2. Aggro (or get aggro'd) a boar (They are not supposed to beat it, the quest should be clear that they should run away. And boars can be outrun at speed 3)
3. Lose aggro with an animal (supposedly the said boar)
4. Get a speed boost
5. Craft bunny slippers (also could include finishing forager credo if devs decide to keep the speed bonus from it, maybe also include a snakeskin/leather belt)
6. Chase a bunny with bunny slippers on (possibly while aggro'd by a boar, idk, i think just allowing them to see how much faster they are will be enough)
7. Run at speed 3 (or 4, but it's not always possible) for X amount of time without dropping below that speed (X being higher than the usual amount of time you can run at that speed without consistently drinking water, maybe express the quest as "without dropping below 60% stamina" to make it clearer)
This quest would make players understand that water is VERY important as far as running away goes (so no more, "ooooh faction boys have troll belt full of water i can't run away with my 2 waterskins", bring more water you dumb dumb, you don't need ALL the tools ALL the time), make them understand that they need to stay above a certain level of stamina when running so they don't drop below a certain speed. And also make it clear how important speed boosts and bunny slippers really are (possibly forager credo too) in running away.

I know PvPers hate "LARPing"*, but Haven tries to immerse players in an iron age world, and while a meta tutorial is already hard to implement in a fitting manner in general, 'carry 15 liters of water in waterskins and wear bunny slippers to chase bunnies as you're fleeing for your life' is simply inexplicable lore-wise and will always seem incredibly silly and completely break immersion which makes it unsuitable for a tutorial quest (unless the devs want to make an exception and have this one single quest not fit the game lore).

The root cause of this, of course, is that the meta of being required to chug several liters of water while chasing bunnies (on mandatory bunny slippers; to wear anything else jeopardizes your safety and leaves you unable to win in PvP combat) in the midst of combat is pants-on-head retarded. Rather than bandaid the situation by teaching the player to drink enough water to kill a person several times over while chasing bunnies, changes should be made so that these absurd meta strats are not necessary.

This quest would make players understand that water is VERY important as far as running away goes (so no more, "ooooh faction boys have troll belt full of water i can't run away with my 2 waterskins", bring more water you dumb dumb, you don't need ALL the tools ALL the time)

And if chugging lethal amounts of water does remain the meta, what we really need is an inventory/belt item capable of holding enough water to survive an encounter (possibly by addressing it the other way around, make water restore more stamina); players will automatically carry enough through natural progression instead of having to be told to do so. Requiring players to carry five copies of the same 2x1 item at all times as basic survival tactic makes no sense.



(* I hate this term, there's nothing 'live-action' about this roleplaying.)

[Rebs]

And another one for running away:
1. Craft 4-5 waterskins and fill them with water (or a bucket, idk)
2. Aggro (or get aggro'd) a boar (They are not supposed to beat it, the quest should be clear that they should run away. And boars can be outrun at speed 3)
3. Lose aggro with an animal (supposedly the said boar)
4. Get a speed boost
5. Craft bunny slippers (also could include finishing forager credo if devs decide to keep the speed bonus from it, maybe also include a snakeskin/leather belt)
6. Chase a bunny with bunny slippers on (possibly while aggro'd by a boar, idk, i think just allowing them to see how much faster they are will be enough)
7. Run at speed 3 (or 4, but it's not always possible) for X amount of time without dropping below that speed (X being higher than the usual amount of time you can run at that speed without consistently drinking water, maybe express the quest as "without dropping below 60% stamina" to make it clearer)
This quest would make players understand that water is VERY important as far as running away goes (so no more, "ooooh faction boys have troll belt full of water i can't run away with my 2 waterskins", bring more water you dumb dumb, you don't need ALL the tools ALL the time), make them understand that they need to stay above a certain level of stamina when running so they don't drop below a certain speed. And also make it clear how important speed boosts and bunny slippers really are (possibly forager credo too) in running away.

I know PvPers hate "LARPing"*, but Haven tries to immerse players in an iron age world, and while a meta tutorial is already hard to implement in a fitting manner in general, 'carry 15 liters of water in waterskins and wear bunny slippers to chase bunnies as you're fleeing for your life' is simply inexplicable lore-wise and will always seem incredibly silly and completely break immersion which makes it unsuitable for a tutorial quest (unless the devs want to make an exception and have this one single quest not fit the game lore).

The root cause of this, of course, is that the meta of being required to chug several liters of water while chasing bunnies (on mandatory bunny slippers; to wear anything else jeopardizes your safety and leaves you unable to win in PvP combat) in the midst of combat is pants-on-head retarded. Rather than bandaid the situation by teaching the player to drink enough water to kill a person several times over while chasing bunnies, changes should be made so that these absurd meta strats are not necessary.

This quest would make players understand that water is VERY important as far as running away goes (so no more, "ooooh faction boys have troll belt full of water i can't run away with my 2 waterskins", bring more water you dumb dumb, you don't need ALL the tools ALL the time)

And if chugging lethal amounts of water does remain the meta, what we really need is an inventory/belt item capable of holding enough water to survive an encounter (possibly by addressing it the other way around, make water restore more stamina); players will automatically carry enough through natural progression instead of having to be told to do so. Requiring players to carry five copies of the same 2x1 item at all times as basic survival tactic makes no sense.



(* I hate this term, there's nothing 'live-action' about this roleplaying.)

Community could solve this issue, all it takes is some experienced fighters making some videos/forum posts about the meta combat systems that are not lore friendly but are required to know if you want to fight. Ironically for everyone complaining about PvP there is nearly Zero people actually making meta guides (I know there is a PvE guides). Even some commentary on some of these kingdom fights would help a lot of people, however I know a lot of those videos have a lot of hidden UI to prevent this.

Get the top pvpers all in a room together record and edit a video about how to fight 1v1 1vX, how to flee properly, show examples. post on forums and become gigachads of the community.

FYI the only one I think has been any help is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgh0WJoebus but is still a meme video in general and has very little explaining, if you were new to pvping this would nearly impossible to follow.

[Dawidio123]

I agree that bunny slippers (and forager credo) being mandatory is a dumb mechanic (and i told devs on stream to remove that shit but yknow "will consider").
And yeah chugging tons of water is a dumb way to have pvp, but you could argue that chases would be a lot less dynamic (You can catch up to someone temporally when they are chugging water) if everyone could just run consistently at speed 3.

And to the point of people making videos and tutorials about it (running away at least, there is something to be said about actual pvp combat, although 1vX is basically just run away for 99% of players), there is not much to be said. Like seriously all you have to do is run in a straight line, drink water so you can run at max speed and don't drop below it, pick speed boosts and then click critters when you see them (which as i said i think is dumb but that's the game).
There are no big secret mechanics or complexities to that. When hermits complain about not being able to run away they are always told these exact things but, instead of learning from their mistakes (usually) they blame it on whatever shit they can (ie. faction boys have more water, faction boys have a good client (not all the faction boys ), it's not that simple, etc.). It is that simple (Just have a spar with your friend/neighbour and give it a run and you'll see that the chaser is clearly at a disadvantage as long as you apply all those tools).

To the point of belts, there are already good enough belts that carry enough water, a snakeskin (or just take some waterflask into your inventory, 5 inventory slots is 10l of water) is able to carry 6 waterskins that equals to 18 liters of water, you don't need more water than this to run away. Yeah faction boys have troll belts full of water because they actually engage in combat and not just run away so it's a back and forth running. With 18 liters of water you should be able to run away from almost any encounter (unless a faction is chasing you down like a dog, ie. using horses to circle around you, tping to thingwalls ahead of you, using snekk to swim in the rivers around you, etc.), like literally get 2-3 speed boosts and you are out, the chaser can't do anything about it.

[Rebs]

I agree that bunny slippers (and forager credo) being mandatory is a dumb mechanic (and i told devs on stream to remove that shit but yknow "will consider").
And yeah chugging tons of water is a dumb way to have pvp, but you could argue that chases would be a lot less dynamic (You can catch up to someone temporally when they are chugging water) if everyone could just run consistently at speed 3.

And to the point of people making videos and tutorials about it (running away at least, there is something to be said about actual pvp combat, although 1vX is basically just run away for 99% of players), there is not much to be said. Like seriously all you have to do is run in a straight line, drink water so you can run at max speed and don't drop below it, pick speed boosts and then click critters when you see them (which as i said i think is dumb but that's the game).
There are no big secret mechanics or complexities to that. When hermits complain about not being able to run away they are always told these exact things, but, instead of learning from their mistakes (usually) they blame it on whatever shit they can (ie. faction boys have more water, faction boys have a good client (not all the faction boys ), it's not that simple, etc.). It is that simple.

To the point of belts, there are already good enough belts that carry enough water, a snakeskin (or just take some waterflask into your inventory, 5 inventory slots is 10l of water) is able to carry 6 waterskins that equals to 18 liters of water, you don't need more water than this to run away. Yeah faction boys have troll belts full of water because they actually engage in combat and not just run away so it's a back and forth running. With 18 liters of water you should be able to run away from almost any encounter (unless a faction is chasing you down like a dog, ie. using horses to circle around you, tping to thingwalls ahead of you, using snekk to swim in the rivers around you, etc.), like literally get 2-3 speed boosts and you are out, the chaser can't do anything about it.

Yeah for sure agree with you here, the meta combat is rather simple. I do however think a lot of people need to see it before being confident in trying it, same goes with PvE to be honest alot of new players are just too scared to make a mistake and lose progress. Also its been stated 1000 times before majority of players don't leave their claim pvp prepared with enough water to even get to an escape option. which is 100% why most people don't/cant run in the first place "Just popping out to get some berries -Oh shit another player, Shit I forgot my 10 waterflasks, gg". Players who are out looking for the pvp will always out prepared those who are not.

I will say I am totally happy with pvpers catching people out, its the only way people will learn even I still make horrible mistakes and get caught out.

if wearing armour would slightly slow you down by a tiny a bit or maybe made the character consume more water for stamina it might balance out the None-armour-wearing-spruce-cap and give them a bit of a chance to escape, and in normal pvp situations everyone will be on a even playing field.

On topic with the OP I do think having a lore friendly combat quest would be a great addition even if its just "Kill a rat by punching it" - "reduce your openings by 10%" etc. This might sound a little weird but you could even have "Get knocked out and teleport back to the hearth while unconscious" followed by some first aid wound recovery quest, could help new people feel more confident and that being knocked out is not so scary *shrugs*.

[Dawidio123]

majority of players don't leave their claim pvp prepared with enough water to even get to an escape option

Yeah that's why i wanted my quest to have them make like 5 waterskins, make it very clear that you NEED water to run away and that having to run away is very much a possibility. Because honestly you can't really blame it on anyone but the players that don't bring the water they need to run. Like you don't need a full trollbelt of water to run, even having like 3-4 waterskins is probably enough (not always but for the most part). So i think making it very clear that they need at least those 5 waterskins would be at least a good thing to encourage.
Like i get your point that sometimes it's about preparation but failing to prepare is a mistake same as not drinking water or missing a speedboost, and if the starting quests made it clear on the amount of water you need (at the minimum) there would probably be less of an excuse to not be prepared.

This might sound a little weird but you could even have "Get knocked out and teleport back to the hearth while unconscious" followed by some first aid wound recovery quest, could help new people feel more confident and that being knocked out is not so scary *shrugs*.

I actually really like that, you could give out this quest when someone actually gets knocked out and then help them along their healing, so something like "Apply medicine to your wound", "Eat until you are full on energy to regenerate", etc. Would actually make it clear that sometimes getting a KO is a part of the game and as you said nothing to be afraid of (well unless the new hp changes make it so you just fucking die xD). If you don't mind i'll try to articulate and define it a tad better and i'll edit this into the OP.

[Rebs]

majority of players don't leave their claim pvp prepared with enough water to even get to an escape option

Yeah that's why i wanted my quest to have them make like 5 waterskins, make it very clear that you NEED water to run away and that having to run away is very much a possibility. Because honestly you can't really blame it on anyone but the players that don't bring the water they need to run. Like you don't need a full trollbelt of water to run, even having like 3-4 waterskins is probably enough (not always but for the most part). So i think making it very clear that they need at least those 5 waterskins would be at least a good thing to encourage.
Like i get your point that sometimes it's about preparation but failing to prepare is a mistake same as not drinking water or missing a speedboost, and if the starting quests made it clear on the amount of water you need (at the minimum) there would probably be less of an excuse to not be prepared.

A bucket of water + a water skin or two is enough in most situation. I am not a huge fan of the idea of a quest telling you to take 5 waterskins because then pvpers will just always bring more then 6 - even though they normally do anyway. I think there is another issue that hasn't really be talked about here which is 1. panic and 2. knowing where you need to run too; yeah sure you have water now but knowing how to escape a pursuit is really the main point here, being chased for 20 mins instead of 5 solves nothing.

If you don't mind i'll try to articulate and define it a tad better and i'll edit this into the OP.

Sure.

[TheServant]

Ringofbrodgar.com


Much easier to show a wiki where you can find links to the best combat guide and how to set a claim. No in-game tutorial can be better than that.