Combat ideas

[slipper]

Anything based on reaction time should never be implemented into the game. In fact, the devs should aim to reduce the gap between players playing close or far from the server. One such method would be implementing a Turn Rate to movement, which would also add a whole new dynamic to combat without the necessity of drastic changes.

[ekzarh]

Anything based on reaction time should never be implemented into the game. In fact, the devs should aim to reduce the gap between players playing close or far from the server. One such method would be implementing a Turn Rate to movement, which would also add a whole new dynamic to combat without the necessity of drastic changes.

Strongly disagree.
Reaction based combat works perfectly in vast population of games of all genres incl. shooters and MMO
And ping matters way different things in CS:GO and L2 for instance, while both of them may be called 'reaction based'. Meaning for some cases difference in 50ms is critical and for other ones difference in 150 ms is not that bad. Like for RPG combat system.
Just checked.
My ping from Europe to Stockholm is 50 ms and to NY is 150 ms.
So if server is hosted somewhere in Frankfurt the ping difference for majority of population (Russia and US) would be near zero, Europe would have some advantage(which is compensated by less population than US/RU fractions and... sorry aussies=)

So if we compare combat which is equal for absolutely everyine but boring with combat which is equal for 90% of players and fun - I would choose the latter even if I'm Aussie =)

UPD. Salvador 248ms
So if you compare yourself to North America with 150ms it's just 100 ms difference. If an average move takes 1 second - you would still have 900ms to react

[APXEOLOG]

This remindes me of the combat system of the modern AAA MMORPGs. The ideas are pretty interesing but i'm not sure they fit into the gamestyle. Hafen is not a WASD-JUMP-ROLL game, most of the combat, again, will be just running and trying to avoid collisions waiting for a good moment to use any skill. Maybe i am wrong. Also doesn't this system weak to 1vsX combat? Will you be able to dodge attacks from the 2 players properly?

[ekzarh]

This remindes me of the combat system of the modern AAA MMORPGs. The ideas are pretty interesing but i'm not sure they fit into the gamestyle. Hafen is not a WASD-JUMP-ROLL game, most of the combat, again, will be just running and trying to avoid collisions waiting for a good moment to use any skill. Maybe i am wrong. Also doesn't this system weak to 1vsX combat? Will you be able to dodge attacks from the 2 players properly?

I've tried to make a detailed answer but it became too long too soon.
My main idea is more about fundamental and configurable system than about actual implementation:
a) Enrich WASD-JUMP part of the game with some coefficients - elevation modifier, orientation modifier, backpedal possibility, stamina drain. Leave them a 1 and you have what we have now. Then slowly change them and see how players use that in their tactics. Repeat until neither movement nor attacking blocking are the one and only viable choice
b) Enrich strikes and blocks with some coefficients - pre-move time, move time, post-move time, hit zone. Same here 0/1/0/"autoaim mode" give you the current system. And then it's open for tuning and balancing.
c) Do something to make server be able to calculate all that crap without lag (if needed).

Again, the end goal of tuning and balancing would be
a) making movement, blocking and striking equally required to be the best
b) Remove all cases of "single OP tactic" which canot be countered with another tactic.
It's a long process

As for your 1vsX question - it is possible to make it balanced if everything is tuned correctly by trial and error. This is just an example.
Lets call them A, B1, B2. Let's say they are same in stats and A is more skilled as player ( because if B12 are more skilled it should be a definite victory for them)
A walks away from B12 at 2nd speed.
If there is a hill nearby - A walks on the hill
To shorten the distance B12 have to switch to 3rd speed.
In the moment of contact A switches to backpedal and raises a block.(well timed block - earlier or later would be failure)
Strike is blocked, post-move delay is in action
A walks up again
B ends with no (or minimal) damage dealt and lots of stamina lost due to running upwards on 3rd speed
A Repeats that until one of them either drinks or makes move with big delay, switches to speed 3, runs behind him and strikes.

So you see - to win in the disadvantageous situation A has to make lots of fast and correct solutions and a bunch of perfectly timed moves. So, to be more skilled
If B team solution-making and perfect timing are on par - the will definitely win using circling, keeping short distance between them etc.

[MrPunchers]

Maybe add ability to switch aswd to moving and mouse to turning, and you can first-person combat? idk if it would be any good on h&h, especially in the current combat system, but it would be cool if they could make it that so pvp was more skill-based than stat-based, and as such you'd need to react to your opponent's movements.
Like if in 1st person, if you saw someone use Chop, you'd use Shield Up or Sidestep, if over head or diagonal, whatever they make the animation, or Quick Dodge if it's a sideways slash, but attacks like Sting, Kick, and Low Blow would go past Shield Up, and you'd need to use some other dodge/block.

But idk if H&H could even handle first-person combat

[ekzarh]

Maybe add ability to switch aswd to moving and mouse to turning, and you can first-person combat? idk if it would be any good on h&h, especially in the current combat system, but it would be cool if they could make it that so pvp was more skill-based than stat-based, and as such you'd need to react to your opponent's movements.
Like if in 1st person, if you saw someone use Chop, you'd use Shield Up or Sidestep, if over head or diagonal, whatever they make the animation, or Quick Dodge if it's a sideways slash, but attacks like Sting, Kick, and Low Blow would go past Shield Up, and you'd need to use some other dodge/block.

But idk if H&H could even handle first-person combat

It sounds nice but going from point-to-click combat to wasd combat is a BIG step.
And AFAIK devs want the world to be isometric, so they'll accept suggestions only for isometric combat.

Although - I know an example of WASD combat in isometric perspective - feel free to fin some inspiration here
http://slitherio.org/games/wilds.io.html

[zebratul]

I cant imagine system like this working in Hafen.

Do you want devs to add dinstinguished animations to tell slow moves from fast? Do you need to be zoomed all the way in to see those animations? If yes, i would hate that, since you can see your surroundings then. Or should that be implemented in the UI?
How would circling your opponent even work, you'll end up getting stuck all the time, while clicking around furiously.
Not to mention backpedaling doesnt work with current movement system at all.

I do, however, like the idea of elevation and facing direction adding more weight to attacks. That sounds reasonable, but the system need a massive overhaul, not a couple of new features.

[ekzarh]

Do you want devs to add dinstinguished animations to tell slow moves from fast? Do you need to be zoomed all the way in to see those animations? If yes, i would hate that, since you can see your surroundings then. Or should that be implemented in the UI?

Animations (clear and visible from default client camera) are the best but complex. Gui icon is simpler. You should see only current moves/blocks/statuses, not the queue. And it has to be more clear.
Any design is done in isometric distanced camera taken into consideration of course. I'd hate max zooming to fight too

How would circling your opponent even work, you'll end up getting stuck all the time, while clicking around furiously.

Option 1 - click behind your opponen. Movement system update is coming - should be able to handle that. Option 2 - this is more or less straightforward math - your pos, enemy pos, distance - by keybord press 'click' in the right place can be calculated and performed.
Apart from that - think where you click or strafe. It's the same for wasd games - you dont strafe into the walls =)

Not to mention backpedaling doesnt work with current movement system at all.

That is easy vith a very little change on client and server sides.
You toggle 'backpedal'.
Server sees it and allows you to move at max speed 1 or 2 (depending on terrain)
And server considers your movements direction as your 'back' (area without defence) during combat calculations
Client shows walking animation with face back
You order your character to move normally (wuth mouse clicks) while char is maintaining face orientation to the enemy
You untoggle 'backpedal' and are able to run again

[APXEOLOG]

This ideas are not new. In Salem (dev's side project) there is simialar combat - wasd, nontarget, timings and counter-attacks. I cannot say anything bad about it, i didn't test it much, but maybe devs will say why they decided to skip that experience.

[bojackson]

Some good points here. Thanks for all your inputs btw ekzarh. It's nice to see people giving thorough suggestions instead of just dev bashing and complaining.

Idea #1 Agree

Idea #2 Agree

Idea #3 Agree, Cool idea

Idea #4 Agree, I Like this a lot, I think it's a simple but very important feature for almost any combat system in any game. It would mean more animations but totally worth it.

Some aoes would be cool like a wide swing, or a more damaging overhead, also a stab would be nice for more armor penetration (kinda like other games do it, thinking of gloria victus atm, very cool combat mechanics in that game. It gives variety, while maintaining balance). Like spears are better at stabbing and armor pen, but swords are faster to parry with ect. warhammers do great armor pen, but only with overhead swing. Just some examples I can recall from gloria victus