"Raiding!" System

[shubla]

in this case you can spawn bunch of alts to defend your place by going through it

Characters can only go through breach from the side of the wall that the breach was made, then leave (not sure if this is possible to do or not)

Well go in from outside side of wall?

[Adder1234]

Well go in from outside side of wall?

Possible, but then you would get attacked by the raiders and possibly die, instead of fighting them inside where, according to the OP, they can only knock you unconscious

[shubla]

you would get attacked by the raiders and possibly die

But if you spawn 20 alts it does not matter if some, or all of them die

[Adder1234]

But if you spawn 20 alts it does not matter if some, or all of them die

Then you would have to have 20 alts waiting outside of your base, ready to race the raiders into the breach. And I doubt that the raiders will stand back and watch them. Also, I'm way too tired to continue this argument now so I'll think up a better idea in about 12 to 16 hours.

[DaniAngione]

The alts would all need criminal skills, which arguably isn't difficult - yes - but perhaps a new one could be added after Theft for Raiding and be slightly more expensive.

And like I said in the OP, "Raiding Weariness" would be scaled to stats in a way that new or low development characters wouldn't be able to steal much more than a couple items.

Yes, that doesn't prevent a swarm of alts even if they have to steal one item at a time - but I guess that this starts to be about another issue (alts & account) rather than the proposed idea. It affects a lot of things though, so yes, it deserves attention.

As for the others not much commented concepts, any observations? I tried to make it clear that the main idea is to make raiding valuable again and also not so destructive for the losing side, hence why things like disabling structures rather than destroying, etc...

Aa for double walls, well... Yeah, double walls are double walls, I'm afraid. They are meant to be a better defense, after all I'm not sure if the validity of it belongs here, just like the multiple v-claim exploits, etc...

Edit:
@above discussion: The KO thing only applies to logged out characters. Any active (being played) or red handed/criminal characters can still be killed normally.
The idea is to be able to KO logged out characters to loot items that could be hidden in alts, but spare the character itself (since its offline)

[NOOBY93]

tbh this would be exploitable on so many levels that fixing each exploit would waste more dev time than thinking up a better system.

Firstly, people would put their gold bars and shit into alts and log off BEFORE sieges. There's no need for gold bars to be in cupboards. Nothing of real value can therefore be stolen.

Secondly, being raided and not being able to log off is a great nerf to village claims, I assume people wouldn't 100% village claim their village and would therefore simply walk out of the claim and log out.

Thirdly, this would make raiding way too risky with almost 0 gain, as it would be much more profitable to stay in your walls and better your economy, than siege someone with great effort and materials, only to steal a couple of inventories full of edels and not even be allowed to destroy their economy/industry?? What?

Fourth, alts could be used to circumvent the weariness, and only a certain number of people being allowed to enter is fucking stupid and completely breaks immersion, that's not how sieges work. More people should be more power.

Alts needing criminal skills is a non-problem.

[DaniAngione]

Firstly, people would put their gold bars and shit into alts and log off BEFORE sieges. There's no need for gold bars to be in cupboards. Nothing of real value can therefore be stolen.

Well, this already happens. So it happening here wouldn't be much different from what we already have. Thing is, there's no way a village can hide everything they have in alts; I mean, they could, but it would be a pain in the *** for daily work if you hide stuff like wrought, high-Q fuel, all the curios and crafted curios, silk, precious metals, maybe even food, etc... A raid could be aiming for anything, maybe they have far better clay? or their super developed tree seeds? There's no way everything can be hidden all the time - that's why a lot of stuff is vaulted after a siege starts, not before. This wouldn't be so possible anymore, that's the idea.

But yeah, never doubt people's capabilities to do insane stuff, so you're right as well. I don't doubt that someone could live with hundreds of alts instead of cupboards - lol. But then again, that's another issue (that permeates the whole game) which is the alt/account thing. It has its own discussion.

Secondly, being raided and not being able to log off is a great nerf to village claims, I assume people wouldn't 100% village claim their village and would therefore simply walk out of the claim and log out.

That is true. Villages could intentionally leave a small square of unclaimed area inside them to be able to logout safely when being raided. I can't immediately think of a way to prevent this.

As for the logout thing, I don't think of it as a big nerf, though - since your character can't be killed if you're logged off (unless you're a criminal). I'm not sure if it was clear enough, but characters could be KO'd (without being wounded, more like a new KO mechanic) to be looted, but not killed. But then again, you had to be online during the siege for that to happen and there are tons of ways this can be avoided - you can move yourself and hide in a safe spot - a hidden cellar, the mine hole, etc... Which actually gives some tension to the moment rather than "Oh, we're being raided, let me logout"

Thirdly, this would make raiding way too risky with almost 0 gain, as it would be much more profitable to stay in your walls and better your economy, than siege someone with great effort and materials, only to steal a couple of inventories full of edels and not even be allowed to destroy their economy/industry?? What?

Right now raiding is hardly profitable, it's usually more profitable to "raid" abandoned settlements than active ones because of all the problems listed in the OP: Alt vaulting, etc...
In theory - if the system works right and some of these techniques are mitigated - a raid would become profitable.
And yes, the idea is exactly to prevent the destruction of their economy/industry. Because right now this is the rule; this is what always happens. And when it happens people leave the game and whine in the forums for a world reset.
The idea is to prevent that and change wars in a way that they feel more like a tug of war. Also, when raiding smaller villages/noobs/hermits and destroying everything, these are more players guaranteed to leave the game for a time or until a reset, it's not encouraging, which brings to more people bored since the population falls down and whining in the forums for resets. The idea is to encourage people to stay in the game, not leave it.

Now, now. Completely destroying someone's economy/industry like you say is important too - of course it is. Sometimes you need to vanquish an advanced outpost or a secondary base - maybe even take it for yourself if it protects important resources or nodes. Sometimes a war has been long enough and it should end once and for all. So yes, it is important. But had you read the thread correctly, you would've noticed that I clearly state that this is still possible. I never said it's not possible anymore - I'm not suggesting to remove this from the game but rather ADD a new, easier, faster and potentially profitable option - called Raiding - that can be used for cases that are not so extreme. Why completely vanquish that poor hermit over there? Just knock his wall, take some shit and leave. He'll easily recover and you'll profit. I'm giving options.

Fourth, alts could be used to circumvent the weariness, and only a certain number of people being allowed to enter is fucking stupid and completely breaks immersion, that's not how sieges work. More people should be more power.

True, I've explained how alts could not be so effective (because of skills/stats) but someone super patient could have TONS of alts to steal item per item if need be.
But then again we come to the same issue as the first topic: this is another discussion of an issue that permeates the whole game (alt/account) and not a problem with the suggested system itself. If you take alts into consideration, everything in the game is broken

As for the second part, "more people should be more power", I agree. But then again I never said only a certain number of people are allowed to go in, that was something someone else commented after the OP.
I said the opposite, I said that the more people you bring, the more profitable raiding could be.
And just as a joke and observation, "that's not how sieges work" isn't exactly an argument though, because if sieges worked like sieges actually work, they'd be veeeeeery boring. Get ready to watch your siege equipment 24/7 for months (and probably lose your character to some dirty disease)

Anyway...
Like I said, the idea isn't perfect and that's why we are here, to discuss
So thank you very much for bringing these points into light.

[Fierce_Deity]

Most of this post looks pretty good, but I feel like it could be expanded on a tad more. It seemed like you were going to touch on it in your post but you didn't really go into it.
The raiding buff is great and nice and all, but I still feel like the ability to completely destroy your foes should be doable. For this to happen a village should have to formally declare war on their target village. After a week, both villages will be "at war" with each other. This grants each village the ability to build a special expensive siege machine that can break gates or walls and not apply the visitor buff, or your suggested raiding buff.


As for other things, I don't really approve of raiding weariness. Seems like a pointless hurdle. If you want to limit the time/amount they have to raid, then something else should be put in place. Perhaps a time limit on breach itself.

As for the alts argument, since that characters can't be killed with the raiding buff, i think everyone offline should be forced to log in. Solves the hiding valuables thing partially.

For the people pointing out you could just walk off village claim if you leave some unclaimed, then the under siege buff can prevent people from leaving the village claim. Some of these counterpoints being offered have no flesh to them.

[DaniAngione]

I really like your points.

Most of this post looks pretty good, but I feel like it could be expanded on a tad more. It seemed like you were going to touch on it in your post but you didn't really go into it.
The raiding buff is great and nice and all, but I still feel like the ability to completely destroy your foes should be doable. For this to happen a village should have to formally declare war on their target village. After a week, both villages will be "at war" with each other. This grants each village the ability to build a special expensive siege machine that can break gates or walls and not apply the visitor buff, or your suggested raiding buff.

Yeah, I did mention something to be honest but I guess it wasn't well explained. Let me quote myself:

"...while different siege weapons - like a Trebuchet - could work like sieges currently work (allowing the complete destruction of a settlement) but have higher times: 24+ hours, becoming exceptions only to be used on serious wars between larger factions."

It's pretty much the same but without the "war declaration" thing. I like the war declaration thing but I guess it could work like a "contest" as we have now for Kingdom's border cairns. You openly "challenge" a village and then the village knows you're coming to raze it completely, but a week might be a bit too much, perhaps 48h would suffice? I don't know, this requires more experience in warfare. But yeah, I did mention that it is still possible to completely raze a village.

As for other things, I don't really approve of raiding weariness. Seems like a pointless hurdle. If you want to limit the time/amount they have to raid, then something else should be put in place. Perhaps a time limit on breach itself.

I agree that a "raiding weariness" isn't the most elegant solution but it seems more reasonable; a time limit on the breach feels a bit odd (why? the wall has fallen, no one repaired it, what limits it?) and it's also difficult to balance. Too little time and attackers won't have time to pick enough loot to make it worth, too much time and the point will be lost since villages will be raped clean anyway. Maybe the answer is somewhere between these two things.

As for the alts argument, since that characters can't be killed with the raiding buff, i think everyone offline should be forced to log in. Solves the hiding valuables thing partially.

I like that. Perhaps some things should be "Impossible" to loot with the raiding buff - like keys - but other than that, this is a nice solution.

For the people pointing out you could just walk off village claim if you leave some unclaimed, then the under siege buff can prevent people from leaving the village claim. Some of these counterpoints being offered have no flesh to them.

This is really cool too. And it makes a LOT of sense. Once under siege, you cannot leave. That's what a siege means, after all. I really like this.
But escaping a siege was also a thing - so perhaps some interesting rules could apply. For example: if a village is sieged on a certain level (being levels: Surface, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5...) you can still leave the village on a different level.
That would make "underground tunnels" as escape routes a reality - and you could "force" your enemy into a trap (by waiting on their tunnel, for example) or just flag the siege underground as well to prevent escapes, things like that.

[SaltyCrate]

A number of questions:
Defending:
How does "Under Siege" status interact with mineholes? With cave entrances?
How does "Under Siege" status interact with charterstone of any other village?
How does "Under Siege" status interact with visitor debuff, namely teleportation via expelling?
How does "Under Siege" status interact with barterstands?

Attacking:
How does "Raiding!" interact with mineholes?
How does "Raiding!" interact with visitor debuff? Can you or can you not get visitor debuff while you are raiding?
How does "Raiding!" characters bypass any walls past the first one?
How does "Raiding!" characters bypass any other claims that are inside?
Does the entire system works the same when sieging village claims / personal claims/ combination of both?
Can "Raiding!" characters interact with stolen items? Can I eat everything edible once inside, without actually moving any single item through breach?
Can "Raiding!" characters steal from every single object that can contain items? Can I steal every chicken on which you worked since the beginning of the world?
When exactly "Breached Wall" status of wall tile disappear?

I' ll stop for now, maybe I will think about something else later. Do mind, that while it may seem that some answers to questions above should be obvious, they stll should be answered. Because otherwise the majority or, in some cases the entirety, of your ideas can be easily made moot, and, depending on chosen answers, will raise even more problematic questions.