Early game FEP tweak

[Sevenless]

But the argument there is that you need to make alts immediately so they're ready to use. But... that's better somehow than making them later when you need to use them? The alts are being created either way, making it slightly more effort or planning to create alts doesn't seem like a valid argument against this per se. I mean under the current system you should still make an alt as soon as you have not completely crap food, feed it to 200%, and then let it idle back to 300% and repeat. I'm not really sure how this changes things for alt makers. It's not that huge a penalty.

At least as I understand things, the devs are aiming to eliminate the need for alts. A mild penalty to alt creation in order to keep early game pacing in check while helping new players... well for me at least I think it's a worthy trade off. But we all know I'm biased on these matters.

[Glorthan]

But the argument there is that you need to make alts immediately so they're ready to use. But... that's better somehow than making them later when you need to use them? The alts are being created either way, making it slightly more effort or planning to create alts doesn't seem like a valid argument against this per se. I mean under the current system you should still make an alt as soon as you have not completely crap food, feed it to 200%, and then let it idle back to 300% and repeat. I'm not really sure how this changes things for alt makers. It's not that huge a penalty.

At least as I understand things, the devs are aiming to eliminate the need for alts. A mild penalty to alt creation in order to keep early game pacing in check while helping new players... well for me at least I think it's a worthy trade off. But we all know I'm biased on these matters.

No, it just means people will create mass dummy accounts at world start for whenever (in the future) they need alts.

Starting at 300% is fine.

[Avu]

Hunger and satiations killed the variety bonus. Why eat a bunch of crap that will gain you more hunger AND more satiations than eating 2 of a good food instead of 1. Only situation where one eats different food than the one you want when you just need a tiny bit as a finisher.

[ricky]

best solution: make chance of satiation increase depending on how many food items of the same type you have consumed.

[NOOBY93]

Best solution: Remove satiation and hunger because they serve no purpose other than fucking noobs in the ass while advanced players just juggle them around with drinks and actually benefit from the system
The idea of satiation was probably to make eating more larpy and diversified - it actually did the opposite, you keep your satiations at 125% and eat the 3-4 best foods and that's it.
Not sure what the idea behind the hunger system was but again, all it did was make people with good tables stronger than people with bad tables, completely wrong direction in which they should've went.

But the argument there is that you need to make alts immediately so they're ready to use. But... that's better somehow than making them later when you need to use them? The alts are being created either way, making it slightly more effort or planning to create alts doesn't seem like a valid argument against this per se. I mean under the current system you should still make an alt as soon as you have not completely crap food, feed it to 200%, and then let it idle back to 300% and repeat. I'm not really sure how this changes things for alt makers. It's not that huge a penalty.

At least as I understand things, the devs are aiming to eliminate the need for alts. A mild penalty to alt creation in order to keep early game pacing in check while helping new players... well for me at least I think it's a worthy trade off. But we all know I'm biased on these matters.

This is just a stupid line of thinking, there's no "planning" behind going around the starting-at-200% for alt users, everyone would just make 10 characters on their subbed account and 10 other accounts with 1 character each (slight exaggeration but point stands) to get them to have 300% when they actually need them. It's just a stupid waste of time. Starting at 300% is the way to go.

[Sevenless]

Alright, I'll back down on the 100% for new chars since you guys seem to really hate that idea.

Best solution: Remove satiation and hunger because they serve no purpose other than fucking noobs in the ass while advanced players just juggle them around with drinks and actually benefit from the system

Honestly, I don't 100% hate the hunger system specifically because it provides a time gate mechanic on food consumption. Salem, they had nothing and it was a logistical nightmare. One fighter with a twinkle in his eyes could eat 2 days worth of food production in 15 minutes. Then he'd ask why there wasn't more, it felt very unsatisfying from a crafter perspective. Old haven, well we all know stam drain got botted but at least there was a time gate. I still think hunger is too punishing on Stam draining chars though, I've been asking for a 0 FEP 0% hunger food for energy regen for years now though lol. Taproot for early game, bread for endgame imo.

I think a lot could be done to make this more intuitive/noob friendly, but I like complex systems. "Benefits endgame players" is fine, so long as it isn't "fucking noobs". There needs to be a balance, but just like combat there's nothing wrong with endgame/experienced players gaining an advantage from a mechanic. The biggest problem is that a lot of early game foods satiate early game foodgroups (and oh god fuck me sideways that "food" satiation I didn't notice is a real kick in the pants). If earlygame foods satiated endgame or useless foodgroups, by the time satations become a problem then you'd have the tools to manipulate them. So the concept of the system imo at least is doable, but it needs rework to be less punishing to "Lets play without reading anything about the game!" types.

Now... there's a pattern in what's being said here though. You're all *really* going to hate me for this suggestion though. Currently, you're all stating "why do any of these complex mechanics when I can eat 1 cheese at 300% and avoid the system entirely?" Maybe 300 and 200% shouldn't exist at all. Even in the current system, when you hit 600-900 FEP, variety becomes more optimal than just gut forcing food due to the hunger system (cheese 4%, variety 1% optimally). The only reason that takes so long to reach is because the 300-200% bonuses extend how long cheese can bruteforce things. Something about that entire situation seems wrong, where avoiding the system entirely is the best course of action.

So yeah, I actually really like this system, complex systems are fun for me. But some damage control needs to go into this complexity to tone it down a bit early early game at least. Also the multi FEP formulas for multi ingredient foods... they should be more predictable. You should know what adding bear meat will do to a food from looking at bear meat, not needing to try every recipe and see what slight variation it magically produces.

[NOOBY93]

Alright, I'll back down on the 100% for new chars since you guys seem to really hate that idea.

Best solution: Remove satiation and hunger because they serve no purpose other than fucking noobs in the ass while advanced players just juggle them around with drinks and actually benefit from the system

Honestly, I don't 100% hate the hunger system specifically because it provides a time gate mechanic on food consumption. Salem, they had nothing and it was a logistical nightmare. One fighter with a twinkle in his eyes could eat 2 days worth of food production in 15 minutes. Then he'd ask why there wasn't more, it felt very unsatisfying from a crafter perspective. Old have, well we all know stam drain got botted but at least there was a time gate. I still think it's too punishing on Stam draining chars though, I've been asking for a 0 FEP 0% hunger food for energy regen for years now though lol. Taproot for early game, bread for endgame imo.

I think a lot could be done to make this more intuitive/noob friendly, but I like complex systems. "Benefits endgame players" is fine, so long as it isn't "fucking noobs". There needs to be a balance, but just like combat there's nothing wrong with endgame/experienced players gaining an advantage from a mechanic. The biggest problem is that a lot of early game foods satiate early game foodgroups (and oh god fuck me sideways those "food" satiations I didn't notice are a real kick in the pants). If earlygame foods satiated endgame or useless foodgroups, by the time satations become a problem then you'd have the tools to manipulate them. So the concept of the system imo at least is doable, but it needs rework to be less punishing to "Lets play without reading anything about the game!" types.

Now... there's a pattern in what's being said here though. You're all *really* going to hate me for this suggestion though. Currently, you're all stating "why do any of these complex mechanics when I can eat 1 cheese at 300% and avoid the system entirely?" Maybe 300 and 200% shouldn't exist at all. Even in the current system, when you hit 600-900 FEP, variety becomes more optimal than just gut forcing food due to the hunger system (cheese 4%, variety 1% optimally). The only reason that takes so long to reach is because the 300-200% bonuses extend how long cheese can bruteforce things.

So yeah, I actually really like this system, complex systems are fun for me. But some damage control needs to go into this complexity to tone it down a bit early early game at least. Also the multi FEP formulas for multi ingredient foods... they should be more predictable. You should know what adding bear meat will do to a food from looking at bear meat, not needing to try every recipe and see what slight variation it magically produces.

It is clear as day you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to how endgame works in this game.

Hunger isn't any sort of time gate for advanced players. I can eat as much food as I want and still remain at 300%, if I somehow by some MIRACLE get to 99% 300%, I eat 1 salt and then I can eat a shitload of food again (this never happens, almost nobody in the endgame uses salt). The real bottlenecks are amount of food (again, not really) and being too lazy to cook SO MUCH FOOD that you ACTUALLY manage to get out of 300%. This is how it looks endgame. Hunger is a joke, yet it still fucks noobs which makes even a bigger gap between noob and advanced stats and works for making noobs even less relevant.

Firstly, pretty much nobody in the endgame eats cheese because it's trash food. People who don't get 1 point per item but say, 1 point per 3 items, still usually spam the same type of food because the trouble of making different foods is bigger than variation usefulness. Endgame players keep their satiations at 125% (because, again, satiations mean nothing to them except one more bonus to their FEPs), subscription + verification, good table and 300% hunger, and just spam the same type of food even if it DOESN'T give 1 point per item. It's the optimal way to go.

If I made a bot that cooked and ate food constantly, every day, stopping at 99% 300% then waiting back to 0% 300%, I could have at least one stat to be 2000, provided that tableware (a bottleneck) is not a problem.

Tableware is the actual bottleneck, this tells you something about hunger being a "time gate".

In conclusion, satiation doesn't do what it was intended to do for endgame players, not even CLOSE, I'd argue it does the opposite - while also being extremely crippling for noobs, along with the hunger mechanic, I've literally been told by a guy who is NOT a noob, he's a veteran in Haven who came back to play Hafen: "Why did I only get 2 strength from a cupboard of big bear bangers?". This guy was in the range of 40-50 stats. Hunger and satiation fucked him and he didn't even know it, while endgame players juggle them and get into the high hundreds of stats easily, by spamming the same type of food.

[Sevenless]

It is clear as day you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to how endgame works in this game.

Indeed it seems I don't. Your descriptions match up with inklings I'd had in retrospect, but hadn't fully realized their impact on insane quality faction endgame. My apologies for improperly interpretting early+mid game and incorrectly laying it on endgame. So how do we fix this?

If there is no time gate on endgame eating, do you think there should be one? Or is making the food enough?

Is the satiation system completely useless, or is it just too powerful and too unintuitive? Would a maximum penalty/bonus of 25% FEPs below/above normal be acceptable instead? Would you leave it in in some form if hunger was removed?

I understand your frustration, but your suggestions are only "rip out all of these systems". If we get to the root of these problems maybe we could give the devs some alternatives. It's clear they like complex systems that reward knowledge of mechanics, and framing suggestions with that preference in mind helps keep haven a level playing experience.

Edit: forgot to ask, what do people eat then? I'm assuming not things like honeybuns, because even at insane quality that hunger would start to pile up if you eat 20 of them. Or maybe I'm wrong again.

[NOOBY93]

It is clear as day you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to how endgame works in this game.

Indeed it seems I don't. Your descriptions match up with inklings I'd had in retrospect, but hadn't fully realized their impact on insane quality faction endgame. My apologies for improperly interpretting early+mid game and incorrectly laying it on endgame. So how do we fix this?

If there is no time gate on endgame eating, do you think there should be one? Or is making the food enough?

Is the satiation system completely useless, or is it just too powerful and too unintuitive? Would a maximum penalty/bonus of 25% FEPs below/above normal be acceptable instead?

I understand your frustration, but your suggestions are only "rip out all of these systems". If we get to the root of these problems maybe we could give the devs some alternatives. It's clear they like complex systems that reward knowledge of mechanics, and framing suggestions with that preference in mind helps keep haven a level playing experience.

It's not frustration talking, I'm one of those people who abuse the shitty eating system to get stats INSANELY higher than the normal player. It's just criticism.

Firstly, I believe time gates are bullshit and if you want a way for casual players to catch up it should simply be drastically lowering the advantage of spending a lot of time in the game. (lot of time = high stats, high stats = insane advantage)

So no, there should be no time gate on ANY eating.

Satiation system is not only useless, but counter productive. It accomplished the opposite of what it was trying to accomplish. People don't eat different kinds of foods because their satiations are lowering, they just keep only a few best satiations at the maximum and spam those foods, ignoring all other satiations. At the same time, noobs who don't have drinks simply can't raise stats past like 40 because their satiations and hunger become so fucked. So fucked, in fact, that it's literally a good thing to kill yourself and inherit.

Think of it like this: The satiation system does absolutely nothing except boost advanced players and cripple noobs. It doesn't add variety to anyone's food because for noobs it takes so little time to have all of their satiations beyond fucked (70% or less), and for advanced players drinks are an easy workaround for the whole system, that also give +FEPs to them.

My solution is not to just rip out both of those systems, as the problem of hardcore grinders being so vastly more powerful than casual players remains. Casual players are completely irrelevant a month into the world.

My solution is to rip out the systems, then make combat MORE one-shotty, increase weapon damage in general so noobs with Q100 swords or whatever can go through the best of armor, and add the 4th root on stats to manuevers as well (they currently don't I'm pretty sure, and are very powerful if you have more UA than the enemy, even by 20%).

Now you might think "wait... he just wants w6 combat back" and, while it's not that simple (it doesn't come from nostalgia), that's true. This is because, in a "chip the enemy's health away slowly" system where a mistake doesn't mean much, the winner is the player with higher stats. While current combat isn't completely "chip enemy away", to get to the point of putting enough openings on the enemy to do a cleave of significant damage, the enemy will try to do the same, and if one of you has higher stats (faster openings and bigger defenses), better weapon and more armor, he will simply come to the point of being able to cleave you for damage faster, 100% of the time.

I think it's fair to say the majority of people who did combat in w6 would agree that w6 combat was the best - stats helped but you could participate with low stats and a sword (300 in all stats and like 800 in strength, and a sword, that was all you needed to fight, and for w6 those weren't big numbers). Numbers of people helped but, again, you could fight while outnumbered, people sometimes went in "ganksquads" of 3-4 people to fight big groups because it was somewhat likely to end successfully if you don't make mistakes.

W6 Haven also didn't make your computer have a seizure when there was over 10 people on the screen at a time, but that's a different subject.

[Sevenless]

To a degree, advancing high level players and crippling noobs is part of the haven "growing experience". Which is why I'll buy making hunger vamoose, but I still think a very toned down variation of the satiation system makes sense. I mean, think about saws. Why does the bonesaw cut less boards than the metal saw? Purely to make it rewarding to get metal. Quality wise, metal saws outpace bone saws now don't they? That system, although apparently arbitrary when looked at objectively, makes haven feel like a reward for maturing.

So If the bonuses were in the range of 25%, and lets just say we remove the entire penalty system due to it being overly complex (foods now satiate what they bonus from down to 100% at the lowest, that's it) would that be more reasonable or still a bad system in your opinion? That system would still make getting your buffs beneficial, but the maximum difference between a developed village and a nooblet in FEP multiplier would be capped at something more reasonable.

As to combat: My experience with combat is limited. I'd have no problems with a bursty system like back in W6, but nor do I with the one now. This system doesn't particularly extend your lifespan from my point of view. Stats being useful, but not overpowered is a great balance to aim for, but I remember being told people didn't really like bothering with high stats since making alts after you hit "good enough" became more useful. But we've had our debates on how long recovering from a combat loss should take, so you know my position there.