Will caves/mines ever be dark again?

[loftar]

I think the argument was that if you implement interaction limitations, light would be a requirement whether or not you use custom lighting. This would at least make the equipment requirements for working in caves similar between artificially lit and not.

Sure, I guess it depends on what the goal is. My point is that it will always "necessitate" light hacks in clients.

[Granger]

I think the argument was that if you implement interaction limitations, light would be a requirement whether or not you use custom lighting. This would at least make the equipment requirements for working in caves similar between artificially lit and not.

Sure, I guess it depends on what the goal is. My point is that it will always "necessitate" light hacks in clients.

Only if you do darkness in a way that lighthacks actually help.

When playing around with scripting in Legacy I noticed that it was possible to interact with objets that have been removed from the client render list by the server - you could 'RMB' on a CB outside render range and the character would still move to it and open it. Thus my comment to enforce render range on the server (so you can only effectively click what can be 'seen') and add a penalty to movement speed (fair chance to faceplant when running around in darkness, making lighthacks actually dangerous as you won't see where the light ends and the headache in the making lurks).

Also: IMHO the underground should be pitch-black -apart from a bit around an entrance- so quite a bit of stuff could simply not been displayed unless been artificially lit. I understand that you need to deliver objects to be able to light them - but I think it's a difference if you deliver them 30 tiles into the darkness (making lighthacks feasible) or just on the moment they'll get any light at all (making lighthacks just ugly as stuff pops up around you).

Somewhat related: have you ever thought about implementing LOS on the server side? If so, what are your thoughts about it?

[loftar]

but I think it's a difference if you deliver them 30 tiles into the darkness (making lighthacks feasible) or just on the moment they'll get any light at all (making lighthacks just ugly as stuff pops up around you).

I get that there's a difference, I'm just saying that if there's the slightest advantage to be had, there has always been client hacks to that effect. Imagine, you could see the other player one or two frames before he sees you! Literally unplayable without!

(making lighthacks just ugly as stuff pops up around you)

I don't think that has ever stopped anyone. :)

Somewhat related: have you ever thought about implementing LOS on the server side? If so, what are your thoughts about it?

I've thought about it, but I can't imagine it would be feasible performance-wise, especially as LoS effectively has to be recalculated between every pair of objects for every step of movement. It doesn't scale very well.

[sMartins]

Imagine, you could see the other player one or two frames before he sees you! Literally unplayable without!

...ehehe....easy is better, animals radius, alarms on enemies, autoaggro and so on, I ask myself why even bother to play the game?....this is a huge issue of our age (thinking that easy is better), and probably it's due to the capitalism god. Greeks would had never tought at this way. Middle age is back again and even worse that it was.

[loftar]

this is a huge issue of our age (thinking that easy is better)

To be fair, though, noone ever has not thought that to at least some degree. In this particular case it's more a matter of the extreme ease of implementation.

[ekzarh]

this is a huge issue of our age (thinking that easy is better)

To be fair, though, noone ever has not thought that to at least some degree. In this particular case it's more a matter of the extreme ease of implementation.

Sevenless commened exactly what I was meaning, so no need to answer prev post.

This extreme ease comes from open-source nature of the client.
http://www.evenbalance.com/faq.php integration + frequent change of packet datagram + closed-source obfuscated client with integrity check + random bans == very big time and effort cost to meddle with client if no big money is involved.

Personally I would suffer a lot from such measures.
But when I know that everyone plays fair - I am ok with playing fair too.

Update: One more good measure is autoban when anything in client-server interaction goes wrong. Even when doing bots in open-source client people sometimes try to send wrong action+parameters messages or in wrong sequences. Together with minimalistic 1$ basic membership it can demotivate even more.

[sMartins]

To be fair, though, noone ever has not thought that to at least some degree. In this particular case it's more a matter of the extreme ease of implementation.

I'm talking about lack of ideas, creativity .... having fun with your mind, being a game (if you understand what I mean).
Everything now is all about efficiency, productivity, like a machine....the world of ideas is gone.
The reasoning behind this is wrong itself, makes no sense to think about efficiency for a player in a game where he is supposed to have fun with it, but we cannot even see this now, cause we are too much into, but you are wrong about it was always been like this in the history, it's not.
It's the modern extreme rationalism of technique...where everything is about the max results with the less effort.
I don't think to be able to explain you exactly what I mean in English language (and probably would be hard even in Italian)....but you, being a developer, know very well about that.....less effort => max results .... but human life doesn't work that way, we need more than that to have a future.
If you take your car now, to go from A to B, you choose exactly the short travel you can (max results => less effort) .... you cannot even imagine to travel from A to C then to B, to enjoy the trip, the nature, etc...this is just an ideal example of what I mean.
And don't think these are just ideal things that doesn't work in the reality...it's how we think that is changed in the last century, cause these things go into us changing our behavior, not even allowing us to "see" in a different way.....everything works like that and there is no alternative (how we see now), instead there is, it's only the dictatorship of the technique that capitalism want, to take value away from the individual ... and I leave to you thinking why capitalism want that.
Sorry for the wall of text and the rant

[loftar]

This extreme ease comes from open-source nature of the client.

There are reasons why the client is open source, though:

... and what about the custom clients, again?
We feel strongly that the design of coherent and optimally functional user interfaces – what the client fundamentally is – leaves plenty of room for personal tastes. No one size fits all, and if you're unhappy with the standard size we provide, we take no issue with you retooling it to suit your own preferences.

[Granger]

(making lighthacks just ugly as stuff pops up around you)

I don't think that has ever stopped anyone.

I think you just evaded my point about caves should be pitch-black.

Somewhat related: have you ever thought about implementing LOS on the server side? If so, what are your thoughts about it?

I've thought about it, but I can't imagine it would be feasible performance-wise, especially as LoS effectively has to be recalculated between every pair of objects for every step of movement. It doesn't scale very well.

Not sure about that, I feel like this could be done on a tile base and cached quite effectively - depending on how you have structured your data.

[Avu]

Damn larpers...