remove the satiation system

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: remove the satiation system

Postby Sevenless » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:40 pm

Make satiations heal over time (fairly rapidly, like back to full in 24 hours), make drinks a consumable buff (eating a buffed item reduces the buff). That way small scale eating you can just eat a single thing, large scale eating you'd need to dip into multiple food groups. Getting the balancing right would take some tinkering (too much penalty and it's oppressive, too little and it's meaningless), but I think it's probably our best shot at actually encouraging varied eating.

Whatever else needs to happen, that 300% is borked progression wise in the current system.
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Re: remove the satiation system

Postby Kaios » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:38 pm

One of the major issues with the 300% FEP gain is that many players will neglect to eat food unless they are at ravenous stage and this should not be the case. Perhaps it would be better if hunger and energy were somehow linked again so that an online player would always be forced to eat at some point because our characters should in fact have to eat regularly in order to prevent sickness and stay alive. Something like that may sound tedious I know but it's incredibly easy to raise stats when you don't have to eat until the most opportunistic times.
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Re: remove the satiation system

Postby Massa » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:44 pm

Sevenless wrote:Make satiations heal over time (fairly rapidly, like back to full in 24 hours), make drinks a consumable buff (eating a buffed item reduces the buff). That way small scale eating you can just eat a single thing, large scale eating you'd need to dip into multiple food groups. Getting the balancing right would take some tinkering (too much penalty and it's oppressive, too little and it's meaningless), but I think it's probably our best shot at actually encouraging varied eating.

Whatever else needs to happen, that 300% is borked progression wise in the current system.

the penalty is huge

to get the most out of your food you just have to wait and not eat, but to get the most out of your food you have to eat the satiation to reset
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Re: remove the satiation system

Postby Potjeh » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:12 pm

If satiations are staying and they're supposed to encourage food diversity, they should be a lot more volatile, ie both rise faster and reset faster. Also, foods should only satiate against themselves, it's stupid how you can spam some meat dish and just ruin your fish satiation which nobody cares about anyway, and not satiate any groups that actually affect the dish you're spamming. TBH I'm not sure this is actually the case these days, but still it's very counterintuitive to have foods that satiate totally unrelated groups,
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Re: remove the satiation system

Postby Sevenless » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:38 am

Potjeh wrote:If satiations are staying and they're supposed to encourage food diversity, they should be a lot more volatile, ie both rise faster and reset faster. Also, foods should only satiate against themselves, it's stupid how you can spam some meat dish and just ruin your fish satiation which nobody cares about anyway, and not satiate any groups that actually affect the dish you're spamming. TBH I'm not sure this is actually the case these days, but still it's very counterintuitive to have foods that satiate totally unrelated groups,


Imo the counter-intuitiveness of that is enough of an argument.

@massa not sure what you mean, the system you're talking about isn't the one I suggested.
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Re: remove the satiation system

Postby svino » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:15 am

The system is intended to punish players who eat only 1 food for a specific stat, however it doesn't work so well, because
#1: Endgame players now only eat food categories where they can reset the satiations through abusing the drinking system
#2: Some players do not enjoy eating at all because the satiation and hunger system seems so complicated.


Maybe instead of punishing players who eat the same food over and over, a new system could reward people who dare to play the variety game?

So for example, you eat 9001 pumpkin pies, and your bread satiation locks out at 50%, but then your fish satiation is 300%, so you decide to eat a lot of fish.

That way, people who don't like complicated eating schemes can eat what they want, and people who like to go the extra mile can try to eat greater varieties of food.
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Re: remove the satiation system

Postby Fierce_Deity » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:32 am

Currently the satiation system works more off of punishment than anything else, or it tries to. I think that rather than ever receive negative satiations for things, we just start to desire other foods more when focusing too much on anything. It would be an overtime thing that increases the FEPs for a given food type. Could be random, like as if from craving. A limited amount of food types can be craved at once as well. Something along those lines seems like a good direction to me. So for clarification, each food type would be at 100% always (disregarding hunger). Food cravings would increase it in varying amounts, 25% being being the base amount. Strong cravings and small cravings perhaps. Drinks could be repurposed to serve as another modifier for a certain food types, giving a temporary FEP boost to the right types of food. Craving meat? Drink beer to maximize that craving bonus. As you eat more of of a food, the craving buff would decrease in a similar way to the current satiation system works.
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Re: remove the satiation system

Postby Kaios » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:48 am

Fierce_Deity wrote:Currently the satiation system works more off of punishment than anything else, or it tries to. I think that rather than ever receive negative satiations for things, we just start to desire other foods more when focusing too much on anything. It would be an overtime thing that increases the FEPs for a given food type. Could be random, like as if from craving. A limited amount of food types can be craved at once as well. Something along those lines seems like a good direction to me. So for clarification, each food type would be at 100% always (disregarding hunger). Food cravings would increase it in varying amounts, 25% being being the base amount. Strong cravings and small cravings perhaps. Drinks could be repurposed to serve as another modifier for a certain food types, giving a temporary FEP boost to the right types of food. Craving meat? Drink beer to maximize that craving bonus. As you eat more of of a food, the craving buff would decrease in a similar way to the current satiation system works.


Sounds interesting, eating food could even become a sort of fun mini-game if consuming a certain combination of foods and drinks together would elicit some extra FEP bonus or other nice effects. For example you sip wine, eat cheese and then some bread type food to maximize the overall FEP gain compared to just eating only cheese or only bread with no drink between each stat gain.
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Re: remove the satiation system

Postby Fierce_Deity » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:10 am

Yeah, i did't really put it in an eloquent way but it gets the point across. A rewards based system is better than a punishment based system.
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Re: remove the satiation system

Postby Granger » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:51 am

Potjeh wrote:Also, foods should only satiate against themselves, it's stupid how you can spam some meat dish and just ruin your fish satiation which nobody cares about anyway, and not satiate any groups that actually affect the dish you're spamming.

This.

I would go so far to say that the reset mechanic should be removed completely and instead the effect be turned into a negative for the stuff you consume with the same amount of percent points be given to 2-3 others areas (randomly selected from a bigger list attached to the food you ate/drunk) as a positive for the total amount of %points always being the same. Being at the lower boundry for the negative one (like 10%, 5%, 1% - whatever lowest seen as fitting) stops satiation events for foods of this area from happening as positive effect can't come from nothing.

Examples (just some names pulled out of nothing to make the idea clear):
Eating cheese gives -2% to it and two of [wine, bread, salad, sausage] go up 1% each.
Drink wine and it goes down 3% while three of [sausage,salad,cake,cheese,bread,fish] go up 1% each.

Possibly also having an upper boundry for a satiation (200%, whatever) stops it being randomly selected from the list of positives to apply, with none left the negative also not applying as a negative also can't come from nothing. For this to work the lists have to be wide enough that it's impossible to end up with a high % on something that can't be lowered as all possible positives are already at their maximum. This could be solved by giving the items on the lists their own weighting, leading to some positives happening more likely than others for a specific food type or even weighting the random chances by their current level (making stuff that is already in high% a little less likely while increasing the chance for stuff at low% a bit), so should the main options to be raised be exhausted the more unlikely ones come into play more often.

This would remove the ability to force-feed one kind while spaming drinks to keeep that one kind at 125% while making the system more intuitive as eating one kind of food will actually make you want to eat less of that kind.
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