A Catch-Up Mechanic for Stats.

[KaiMolan]

Terrible

Can't sum it up better than this without getting rude.

I try not to crap on ideas (anymore since I'm a moderator and somehow people think I have more say on what goes into the game), but the problem is other things, such as learning effective game play just to name one.

And my problem with these critiques of this idea is once again I have to point out that saying something is bad, without a why isn't effective at all. Without some form of logic behind your critques, what's the point of commenting?

I honestly don't care if you guys don't like the idea, that's fine. What's pissing me off here, is most of the replies have been single word or phrase replies with no logic behind them. I'd prefer rude honesty over rude dismissal.


Truth is the balancing mechanic(Murder) that was originally in place has been taken away for a more casual system, and now there is no effective way to cut down these stat titans, there are no stat caps, and constant world resets is not a sustainable game model if the active playerbase is to grow. Personally I don't want to see stat caps, and I view this catch up mechanic not unlike how our world works when it comes to technology, or even an evolutionary mechanic that evolves the entire hearthling species.

In the end a solution to deal with either the rampant stat titans, or a way to catch up to them is needed. If the game is going to continue to get more casual, then a catch up mechanic is needed, otherwise we need to return to the old ways, or come up with some other cut down mechanic.

And if all you have is a single word, or no logic reply and do not wish to add to the discussion. Then do not reply. Thoughtful replies only please.

[DreadDawson]

Honestly it ends up being unfair to those who no-lifed and got good stats, or paid $ for sub tokens to buy the best gear to more quickly gain stats.

Overall the idea just doesn't work for H&H, at the very least until we have a permanent world. If we had a permanent world then this would be something to talk about, but as it is worlds last for roughly a year if we are lucky.

[KaiMolan]

Honestly it ends up being unfair to those who no-lifed and got good stats, or paid $ for sub tokens to buy the best gear to more quickly gain stats.

Overall the idea just doesn't work for H&H, at the very least until we have a permanent world. If we had a permanent world then this would be something to talk about, but as it is worlds last for roughly a year if we are lucky.

The only time Jorb and Loftar reset a world is when development demands it, which to me, seems to mean they are working towards a persistent world. If I'm not mistaken W7 lasted 2 years before being "reset". Actually isn't W7 still available in legacy, or did they reset it when they came out with Hafen/W8?

As for it being fair to the no lifers, that's why there is meant to be curve to the catch up. So they can maintain their lead, but they need to actively do so, not unlike a technological race. They can't just grind up and sit pretty using their gained power to keep others down. Nevermind that there are limited resources and they were able to leverage their early advantage to get a lot of the good nodes. No lifers already have an advantaged position regardless of a catch up mechanic. They have more time, were likely the first to have the stats need to take more precious/localized resources and defend said resources due to their lead.

As for the sub tokens, gaining the gear is your reward for that, or the sub time. Point is the sub token thing is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Mainly due to the fact that, high stats doesn't guarantee high level gear. You still need to find/create the HQ material, grind up the anvil and hammer, and hope yours is on par with whomever has the higher gear. Subtokens and buying the gear with such is nothing more than a shortcut for time, not a shortcut for stats. Also I don't think this Catch Up Mechanic should be gained without being subbed, or the bonus be broken up between verified and sub.

It just gives them more competition and allows others to fight them on a more equal footing, or at least a chance to obtain the equal footing. If I were to grind my stats for the next 9 months I'd probably hit 10k, however by then they are probably at 20k or higher with still no way to actually catch up with them since they are unlikely to die and lose those stats without being an absolute idiot. No real way for you as a player to actively catch up or cut them down(without pure luck), and that has a negative psychological effect on a lot of players. One that I believe needs to be addressed, because it makes me sad to hear players aren't coming back until a "Reset" because they feel they are too far behind.

Edit: Also thank you for putting in a thoughtful reply, I do appreciate it.

[Granger]

Unbound growth dosn't work long term, in a living being that effect is called cancer - in the game it has the same effect (host dies eventually), only with the twist that new players see at what quality / attributes other are and lose the will to play as they don't see how to catch up, ever.

Hence this one IMHO approaches the problem from the wrong direction. Instead of something that helps to catch up we need something that keeps the reachable levels within bounds. See the 'give us a world with stat caps' discussion for some ideas.

[KaiMolan]

Unbound growth dosn't work long term, in a living being that effect is called cancer - in the game it has the same effect (host dies eventually), only with the twist that new players see at what quality / attributes other are and lose the will to play as they don't see how to catch up, ever.

Hence this one IMHO approaches the problem from the wrong direction. Instead of something that helps to catch up we need something that keeps the reachable levels within bounds. See the 'give us a world with stat caps' discussion for some ideas.

This is a valid point, and my suggestion came about because of that thread the opinions expressed in there. Even directly linked it here in my OP. Seemed to me many want stat caps because it retards growth and allows the developer to balance around it more easily when it comes to content and PVP. However for me this takes away some of the fun when it comes to Haven and Hearth.

I like the fact their can be titans roaming the earth, and that people can be truly legendary. That at no point do you stop progressing, which kills a lot of other games for me is that lack of progression and need to keep moving forward over the next hill in your journey. I believe it breaths life, and a sense of time into the world to be without those limitations and to see that someone was able to achieve such greatness. Admittedly without anything to do with that greatness the stagnation also starts to set in. I wouldn't mind seeing a scaling difficulty going with it as well, either unique areas or even animals being the average level of the surrounding hearthlings and as such more difficult to take out.


Truth is this game is a bit backwards when it comes to most games. In which a of the statistical heavy lifting is in the form of personal attributes, versus gear that is added into the game that allows the developer to choose when and how much you can raise your stats. It's also quite possible that the game would benefit from capped stats, however you'd just hit the point of stagnation sooner which can kill a game as well. Nevermind all the tedium of balancing and constant complaints when you balance X wrong, or Y being too OP/UP(even when it isn't).


I think some truly dangerous and awesomely rich(meaning good drops/materials) areas could be a much more effective way in keeping the Titans down(and give them something to do), as well as wounds being hard to get rid of, or need more steps than just applying a bandage. Making combat wounds more dangerous and prone to infection, as well as it being possible to lose a limb/gear slot permanently if not treated correctly or in case of amputation. Hell maybe making it possible to be murdered after a soft cap has been reached would be a fun thing as well. Then again I also play games on the hardest difficulties(and mod for difficulty when possible), and my favorite game is Dwarf Fortress.

Still until more hardcore balancers are considered and put in. I think a softcore, casual mechanic is needed to help people catch up late in the game for people who, quite frankly, don't have time to put into HnH like some of those titans. It keeps it healthier and allows for more interaction in the game.

Though I do have to admit maybe this is the wrong way to look at it, because no matter what a computer does have hard limits when it comes numbers, only so many digits a float/int can hold lol. Either way we need to find a way to make Titans prey, whether that's allowing others to become titans themselves or by having natural mechanics that deal with the Titan overpopulation. Still against hard stat caps, but would be happy to see soft cap in stats where the world becomes much more dangerous, or more dangerous and lucrative places(It's a trap!!).

[MagicManICT]

And my problem with these critiques of this idea is once again I have to point out that saying something is bad, without a why isn't effective at all. Without some form of logic behind your critques, what's the point of commenting?

The logic is simple and obvious: why should someone get a shortcut to what everyone else does? It's a shortcut nobody deserves, nobody is entitled to, and is completely unfair to the game.

Better to argue for caps or a change to core game mechanics rather than something nonsense like this.

[KaiMolan]

And my problem with these critiques of this idea is once again I have to point out that saying something is bad, without a why isn't effective at all. Without some form of logic behind your critques, what's the point of commenting?

The logic is simple and obvious: why should someone get a shortcut to what everyone else does? It's a shortcut nobody deserves, nobody is entitled to, and is completely unfair to the game.

Better to argue for caps or a change to core game mechanics rather than something nonsense like this.

I never argued that it was fair. I don't really care if it is or isn't. What matters is a healthy game, with lots of people and content created by said people. If that means a mechanic in which people can come back and get in the relative swing of things, I don't see that as a bad thing. Better than them sitting on the sidelines for a year or two till development demands a world reset.

If your only argument is that's unfair, it's not a good one, and doesn't look at the bigger picture. Games aren't fair, life isn't fair, and a healthy game > stagnant one.

[MagicManICT]

but games are fair. what's not "fair" (it perfectly well is) is you entering a chess tournament and then having to face Gary Kasparov the very first match... at least to you, anyway. But then, that's the game you chose to play and willingly walked in to it. You don't get a handicap in chess, and you don't get a handicap here.

The game is being fair. You just have your feelings hurt because you feel inadequate compared to other players. Learn to control your feelings instead of letting your feelings control you. Emotions are based completely on your rational thoughts and beliefs. Your beliefs are based on your thoughts (whether rational or not). You have a belief that you deserve assistance later in the game where you really don't... at least not in the way you want it. If any assistance is given, it should be given by players, not the system. This is also how life works, too. Game = life = game... funny how they work like that.

[KaiMolan]

but games are fair. what's not "fair" (it perfectly well is) is you entering a chess tournament and then having to face Gary Kasparov the very first match... at least to you, anyway. But then, that's the game you chose to play and willingly walked in to it. You don't get a handicap in chess, and you don't get a handicap here.

The game is being fair. You just have your feelings hurt because you feel inadequate compared to other players. Learn to control your feelings instead of letting your feelings control you. Emotions are based completely on your rational thoughts and beliefs. Your beliefs are based on your thoughts (whether rational or not). You have a belief that you deserve assistance later in the game where you really don't... at least not in the way you want it. If any assistance is given, it should be given by players, not the system. This is also how life works, too. Game = life = game... funny how they work like that.

You are comparing a stagnant and complete game to a living breathing one, where the rules, chess pieces(players), are constantly evolving. As for my emotions surrounding my progress, I'm happy with my pace of development. Once again what I'm unhappy with is a lot of sidelined players waiting for a world reset. How about instead of trying to guess at my emotional state, you just keep to the facts and arguments at hand .

Which is that a lot of players aren't coming back because they do feel that they are too far behind and can't reasonably catch up to the players that stuck around. If the rules need to be changed, to allow those players to come back in to play, that's a good thing.

As for life, you have a shit ton of head start/Catch up mechanics in place. You are already living off the backs of those that came before you, those that made scientific discoveries, those that survived diseases, and educational institutions to get you "Caught Up". In a phrase, those who have put in more hard work than you. You still have to work though to make any of those things matter, and put them to use.

Just because you have high stats, doesn't mean you know how to use them effectively, it just means you have the stats that are comparable to the rest of the community. Your feelings of"That's not fair" are your emotions coming into play over a an idea of a rule change to make the game more alive and allow players to come back. In an MMO rules change all the time, the idea of fairness is mutable idea, and not one that truly matters in the grand scheme of things because no matter what someone is going to find something unfair.

To put it quite simply, again, Healthy Game > Dying/Stagnant Game. If that means allowing players to come back and catch up. I think that is good and healthy. If you don't, so be it. Your emotions of "That's Unfair" do not make the basis for a sound argument.

[maze]

To easily exploited and the curve would be to hard to manage correctly.
if we had a "throw away alt" on day one get 100 str.
Everyone else on the server is now buffed to get to this 100 str guy.
If a faction use this, they could spiral stats on the first week.
Given it also helps the other people who know how to works. but it would make one clear winner.

Later down the road the catch up stat is just that. a catch up stat.
It does not really stop the people who are ahead.

it would be a change that would honestly add noting to the game other then speeding up people to get past 300-500 stats and being confused why stats are even there.

Noting is fun about this "catch-up" idea.