Salt rework

[Forest]

Belongs, indeed, to a more general rework from the ground up of all the food and hunger effects.

Especially pay attention to energy/food aspect. Just started to play recently and being frustrated by the mechanics of energy aspect. It seems that you should perform everyday tasks with garbage characters with a broken build that are eating garbage and have very low FEP bonus. While the main character comes once a day to eat culturally from the serving table. It looks weird.

[Sevenless]

Belongs, indeed, to a more general rework from the ground up of all the food and hunger effects.

Especially pay attention to energy/food aspect. Just started to play recently and being frustrated by the mechanics of energy aspect. It seems that you should perform everyday tasks with garbage characters with a broken build that are eating garbage and have very low FEP bonus. While the main character comes once a day to eat culturally from the serving table. It looks weird.

I've been bugging jorb for a "no FEP, all energy" food or some equivalent for a while so people can do grunt labour on a character without destroying stats (need to make a house today but have no AGI food, etc).

I think there's been a lot of stat inflation that makes the old early game balancing a touch trivial. Better curios have crept in, study desks help everyone study like botters (ie faster than originally intended) but that's not the real issue. Gilding is a massive source of this, as right now in the start you basically get 5 survival and then your survival/exploration/farming skill is double by your gear until you hit 100 raw levels. Your quality tends to keep up enough that you never have undoubled stats until that stage. Masonry was much harder to achieve this, but I haven't fully checked through the new gildings to see if it's effected as well. Compare this to old haven balancing, where tops you would get maybe 10-20% bonus stats and that would mostly be in the early days. The higher stats from gilding quickly lead to everything else quality spiralling at double speed until 200ish effective stats. Early-mid game in haven balancing has always been in the <100 region since that's where you get the x3 bonus from and it rapidly tapers off afterwards.

The x3 FEP bonus from ravenous that can be used infinitely is the obvious gimme, but the gilding power feeds into it as well by producing higher quality food very quickly.

For sure this isn't the only issue out there, but I wanted to add it since no one else was mentioning it and I feel it's important. We've gotten a lot of awesome new conveniences (horses, study desk, etc) without rebalancing the pacing of the base game. One or two changes was fine, but now with all these factors and FEPs together it's obviously making the early/mid game vanish quickly.

[jordancoles]

Could just make it so that eating food without a table gives no fep/satiations and only energy

[Sevenless]

Could just make it so that eating food without a table gives no fep/satiations and only energy

Sure, that would be an easy solution. I'm not sure if it would be intuitive to beginners though, which might make having specific foods for energy creation be a bit easier to figure out as a beginner. You could have something like taproots/roasthopper give zero stats/hunger and/or a generic "stewpot" where anything edible you threw into it would create forager's hotpot for the task or something.

I don't think how to implement it is the issue though, I'm not entirely sure why we don't have it. I know jorb's aware of people asking for it, so there's some reasoning behind it I've either not heard or forgotten about.

[MagicManICT]

Could just make it so that eating food without a table gives no fep/satiations and only energy

I hope this would be optional. You still want to gain attributes before you can even make a table. What's the first thing nearly everyone does at world start? Push INT and PER as much as possible to get started, then STR, AGI, CON, and DEX--whichever ones you need--on that character. It's nice that we can build a table in those animal dens/hidey-holes, but if you don't have one of those nearby, then you need a house, and that then means Yeomanry, and that's at least several hours.

[Sevenless]

Tables can be built outside currently. I always build one before I make a house. But I still feel that solution would be a bit too beginner unfriendly. It would require a pointer in the tutorial where designing the system slightly differently wouldn't require that.

+ I just like the idea of carrying around some lembas for when I get hungry.

[Granger]

all the quality inflation issues (that the last ones, and the current, had) so we don't end up (again) with a world containing overpowered quality within the first few weeks.

Namely? Iron spiraling, and...?

As one can easily cheese kill deer, moose and bear without impacting their quality a q100+ bonesaw (thus q50+ boards) is available as soon as survival allows, Icicles and contemplation will make sure that this happens very quickly. Gems will add to this massively as their LP/h are completely overpowered, even today in a 900 day old world.

Being able to compost the remnants of high quality animals - especially their bones, as these are not capped by tool quality - gives soil for tree planting way above of what can be naturally found in the world, even when initially using q10 quality compost bins. As q~50 clay and water sources will be located by then (and most likely similar quality coal from the mines will arrive to burn the pots): The first generation of trees, sprouted on the first herbalist table, will most likely plant near q50.

The first surviving bough tree will raise the bonesaw by another 25 points, fruit/nut trees (where seeds can be harvested early) multiply quickly and so quality logs will soon be available in quantity and tree quality will increase even more (as boards can go into both tables and compost bins, raising both soil and table for the next tree generation).

Sure, this is a faction progression scenario.

One option to remove the impact of individual outliner high quality ingredients could be changing the quality formula for items and builings from (q1+q2+...+qn)/n to (q1*q2*...*qn)^(1/n), which would reduce a bone saw made of q10 bough and q200 bone from q105 down to q~45.
This should cut down progression speed quite nicely.

[MagicManICT]

Tables can be built outside currently.

I'll stand corrected, then. I forget when they got limited to being built "indoors," but old habits die hard (especially when it's a small change that's easily overlooked).

[Sevenless]

Tables can be built outside currently.

I'll stand corrected, then. I forget when they got limited to being built "indoors," but old habits die hard (especially when it's a small change that's easily overlooked).

Oh man, you don't have to tell me. I trip up telling people things from W5 sometimes still.

On that note, fishing becoming limited resources again is mentioned in the wiki. Also fate is gone? I'm a little lost personally.

[jorb]

Some good points made here. Made a note for future references. Feel free to post more.