Not so Short List of Things I Would love to see in H&H

[MinionTwo]

i havent read all of it yet, and i give kudos for the ideas. the only real issue that i see is that iirc the setting of the game is a version of historical (maybe 1500s?) scandanavian countries. either timeline or location would remove fully half to 3/4s of the plants and animals associated there. however the rest of the items i can get behind. definately worth consideration and potential elaboration.

[L4Lovely]

The carriage seems like a really neat item. I'm liking that one. <3

[defe999]

Well, I made some corrections and revisions to the overall list, though most texts will reamin unchanged. A point most people is bringing here is that most of my list or at least half of it is anachronic in respect to the oficial lore of the game. Thus, I’ve colored (in green) those items that are indeed anachronical if we consider a game set in “Iron Age Germania” or “Germanic Iron Age”, that is to say, the period going from the 5th to the 8th centurie CE (or AD). This i an interesting game setting, a time previous to the “Viking Age” (9th to 11th centuries CE), but preceded by the Roman Iron Age (1st to 4th centuries). During the Germanic Age a lot of influence spred from the mediterranean world into northern Europe, including goods, technlogy and cultural advances. There is no such thing as “Byzantium” in the game, so, we can’t pretend to include long distance trade routes and importantions from southern civilization, as were goods like silk, mediterranean fruits (olive, grape) and their processing products. Here a list of things that are already anachronic or displaced in space in the game:

Animals:
• Mammoth (present in Europe until 10000 years ago, dissapeared long before human written history)
• Mouflon (originally only in Corsica and Sardinia, extinct in Europe from about 3000 or 4000 years ago)
• Green Ooze (not even an animal)
• Silk moth (domesticated in China, much later introduced in Byzantium)
• Dryads (although mythological, these are greek in origin)
• Walrus (these included because they are sea animals, not riverine)

Trees:
• Almond (common in the Levant and the Mediterranean)
• Laurel (mostly Mediterranean)
• White Mulberry (Eastern Asia)
• Olive (Mediterranean)
• Towercap (mushrooms this tall haven’t ever actually existed)
• Walnut (central Asia but introduced into the Mediterranean Basin)
• Quince (mostly Mediterranean)

Bushes:
• Tea bush (with origin in tropical China)

Crops:
• Cucumber (introduced in eastern Mediterranean countries like Turkey, as well as Iran and Irak, around 6th and 7th centuries AD)
• Grapevine (mostly Mediterranean, later introduced in central Europe)
• Pumpkin and Tobacco/Pipeweed (both New World crops, pipeweed was a name popularized by Tolkien, as he included it as a drug imported from the “mysterious east –or Rhûn-”, although like tomatoes and potatoes, cultivated by Hobbits, these were imported into Europe after the discovery of the Americas)
• Peppercorn (Indian in origin, imported through the Spice Route, very valuable and often used as commodity money)

Fishes:
• Brill (sea fish from deep offshore waters, although Plaice is a freshwater flatfish)

Structures:
• Stone Tower (Stone masonry and castles began to be built around 9th and 10th centuries in Britain, France and southern Europe, in response to attacks of Magyas, Muslims and Vikings and other germanic raiders)
• Furniture: Armchair, Cushioned Bench, Cushioned Stool, Fine Sofa (originated as thrones in Arabia, as most cushioned furniture), Garden Bench, Rocking Chair, Study Desk.

Notably absent, given the setting, are rye, oats and millet, whose cultivation has been common in Europe since ancient times, and these grains were the basis of ancient germanic economy, along with wheat and barley. Mead halls and sod roofed houses were very common in ancient Scandinavia as well as the consumtion of Mead, fermented honey beverage, drank along with beer. Druids, as priests, seers, bards and experts part of courts, were important actors in Celtic tribes, yet their orders were in decline as of 2nd century, and only insular orders had survived in Wales and some british isles as of 7th century, so their rites were largely forgotten, and definitively these were not part of germanic culture. Silkfarming, or sericulture, began in Chinese territory around 7000 or 5000 years ago, by the Yangshao culture, although there are remains of silk fibres found on Indus Valley Civ sites from around 2000 BCE. Smugglers took silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire aroun the 6th century, but there it remained a monopoly of the Empire until the 12th century, and later it spread through Western Europe. The Germanic Iron Age had finished by then. Tea production and drinking was introduced into Europe by Portuguese priests around the 16th century. Large scale stoneworking and masonry projects (castles and towers) were almost non-existent in Northen Europe among germanic people and was common in central and southern Europe as a response to the increased rate of raids and incurssions from other lands, among these, many germanic tribes.

As a synthesis, and I doubt anybody is gonna read my quick evaluation of the “lore standard”, I can say that what prevails in introducing new content into the game is the criterion of the game developers, using “lore” (a setting in the Germanic Iron Age) not as an absolute set of rules but as a guideline, and in such a concept I have used the same criterion, readily mentioned multiple times in the original comment. Another thing that everyone should know is that through the Byzantine Empire, Frankish Kingdoms and southern germanic tribes, many goods were constantly poured in through trade roads into germanic lands (and many goods were exported, like amber, precious metals, soapstone), while elements like silk, tin, ivory, incense and wine were readily imported into germanic lands. As there are no “external lands” (primarily Byzantium, secondarily southern trade routes into Asia Minos, Southern and Eastern Asia) in the game, then the only solution to the inclusion of imported goods is local production (that is why there is silkfarming, tea production, wine production, et cetera, in the game, even though germanic tribes did not incoporate those practices). Imported goods are as important in defining a culture as the products produced locally, as technology and religions also come with trade as a medium of cultural diffusion.

Also, in red, I had to add some alcoholic beverages, seafood common in the North Sea, some game birds common in Northen Europe, North Sea fishes and some “diversity options” in animals and birds, as to allow a diverse pool of game to offer to hunters. Also, I took out of the fish list Salmon, Trout, Bream, Eel and Perch, while Carp can be still considere dan option for fish farming, although that list could include bream (specifically gilt-head sea bream), mussels, oysters, scallop and catfish (more common in Southeast Asia though), other aquaculture are also posible but there’s no need to mention them.

[MinionTwo]

very nice reply to those(including me) that are making the arguments based upon anachronism. part of why I had mentioned later period history is because a lot of the plants and buildings had already been introduced or could have been introduced.

Technicaly, mammoth was still around when the pyramids were being built, but yes, would have been extinct by the 1500s. I imagine it's put in as a combat challenge for the higher tier players.
Mouflon is essentialy just a wild sheep. the ancestor of the domesticated sheep which is what actualy happens in game. you domesticate sheep from the mouflon.
Silk Moth easily introduced by the vikings as they had a worldwide trade network set up at the height of their empire.
In a world with no oceans, a Walrus would indeed be a riverine animal.

Everyone has their own interperetation of how the game should be seen and made, and will mention so. Jorb and Loftar may use their input just to gauge the overall acceptance of a given suggestion. in the end, all it realy boils down to is throw your suggestions out there, give them a little bit of support and explaination and the only real opinion that you need to worry about is that of Jorb and Loftar.

you have lots of good ideas, flesh them out a little bit, consider how they could impact the rest of the game, whether it's negativly or positivly, and then toss that idea on the altar. I'd love to see some of your stuff make it into game.

[Potjeh]

• Towercap (mushrooms this tall haven’t ever actually existed)

Sure they did. Prototaxites back in Silurian/Devonian.

[defe999]

• Towercap (mushrooms this tall haven’t ever actually existed)

Sure they did. Prototaxites back in Silurian/Devonian.

Well, yes and not. Mushroom are the fruting body part of some fungi, but not all fungi are mushrooms. Prototaxites, even though I love this primitive Devonian fossil, is actually considered to be a fungi associated with algae, thus forming a "lichen", even though a big one.

Technicaly, mammoth was still around when the pyramids were being built, but yes, would have been extinct by the 1500s. I imagine it's put in as a combat challenge for the higher tier players.
Mouflon is essentialy just a wild sheep. the ancestor of the domesticated sheep which is what actualy happens in game. you domesticate sheep from the mouflon.
Silk Moth easily introduced by the vikings as they had a worldwide trade network set up at the height of their empire.
In a world with no oceans, a Walrus would indeed be a riverine animal.

Everyone has their own interperetation of how the game should be seen and made, and will mention so. Jorb and Loftar may use their input just to gauge the overall acceptance of a given suggestion. in the end, all it realy boils down to is throw your suggestions out there, give them a little bit of support and explaination and the only real opinion that you need to worry about is that of Jorb and Loftar.

you have lots of good ideas, flesh them out a little bit, consider how they could impact the rest of the game, whether it's negativly or positivly, and then toss that idea on the altar. I'd love to see some of your stuff make it into game.

Well, thank for reading the reply! Only a few observations, first, the viking culture didn't form an "empire" in the strictest sense, although there existed a short lived thalassocratic "empire" known as the "North Sea Empire", for two decades in the 11th century. The "Germanic Iron Age" had ended two centuries before that, around the 9th century (early 800's). Even though the vikings traveled far and wide, just as the germanic peoples in general, they didn't introduced sericulture and silk production into their lands, so that is anachronic, but I am not saying it should not be included into the game. Quite on the contrary, time consuming activities and industries promote cooperation, as people need to expend a lot of time doing different chores, and also silk was imported from the south into germanic lands, so it was and expensive yet present good in the higher classes.

I know that in the end Jorb and Loftar decide what to include in the game as they see fit. I made a rather long list as suggestion, more of a guideline actually, because posting a thread for every single item, some of them already included into the game would be counter-productive and annoying, and also quite a lot of work. A posted a list for those interested enough to read and suggest, and also because some of these are things absent from the game, even though the "lore guideline" would suggest they must be already pressent (millet, oats, rye, mead!, among many others), so I had to point their absence in the game, because adding anachronic or displaced content (silk, tea, tower), while not implementing those seem a little contradictory given the setting. Adding some of those simple things, that were an important part of germanic economy and culture, will add more flavor and accuracy to the game. I don't flesh the out because most of them are simple and necesary additions, not big game changing ideas (unless someone thinks that cultivatin oat or producing mead, an alcoholic beverage made with honey and water, will change the game significantly). Maybe I am wrong, but that's it, the thread is open to suggestions.

[MinionTwo]

the viking culture didn't form an "empire" in the strictest sense

Right. I simply meant is from the aspect of being known in large areas and having a large reach, not in an aspect of lands conquered or similar counts.

also, SCA?

[defe999]

the viking culture didn't form an "empire" in the strictest sense

Right. I simply meant is from the aspect of being known in large areas and having a large reach, not in an aspect of lands conquered or similar counts.

also, SCA?

The I suppose the correct term would be something like realm, domain or civilization (even though that last term is more akin to culture than to lands controled by any group of people).

SCA, as pear the Urban Dictionary, is Society of Creative Anachronisms? If not, I don't know what that could possibly mean. Too many acronyms in English If I'm not so wrong, why the question?

[MinionTwo]

yeak. i was just asking if you might have been a member of the Society for Creative Anacronism. I dont meet a lot of history buffs who arent.

[defe999]

The answer to the original question is no, I'm not a member (of any society actually ). I'm Argentinian by the way (Spanish is my first language), not many such societies here, sadly. And I am not just passionate about just history (mythology, zoology, paleontology, ethnology, archaeology are also on the list ).