World generation is too random

[Attas]

I know jorb is agaisnt the generation of oceans because they're simply lost space - which is kinda true. And since we're dealing with a game inspired by slavic-germanic mythology, shouldn't we try to generate a world that is based on the region where this happened, where the main bodies of water were rivers?





There could be a generation of river basins, maybe two or three major rivers with lots of tributaries but without showing the sea itself - just making it incredibly wide downstream, where the map would be cropped.

Here's a quick drawing of what I mean:



Coupled with bridges - cheap ones to cross little streams to really expensive and maybe fragile ones to cross the wider portions of the rivers - this map would be amazing for Haven setting.

I'm not sure how hard this would be code-wise, especially considering that map relief is not entirely random - it has to be made so that rivers can't ever go up, probably simulating millions of years of sedimentation and natural phenomena leading to the carving of the terrain.

[iamahh]

this is W10

lots of trial and errors on why map is this way

[shubla]

I agree that the world generation sucks currently.
No idea how to improve it though!

Maybe hand drawing the map, at least to some level.

Or well, I have few things:

Current idea that all of the rivers are connected to each other is not good thing! I think that all of them should not be connected to each other.
For example, it makes travel by boat way too OP. Looks ugly and unrealistic.

Coastline looks stupid in many places (lakes mostly).
Cliffs are generated in a dumb way.
Some biomes are too small, there are small dots of some biome in middle of some other biome, does not make sense.

I think that saying "big masses of water are waste of space" is a stupid thing to say when we have massive mountains everywhere, taking lots of space, not being used for anything. Maybe if they were bigger, they would block movement, which would be interesting. But currently they only add two minutes more to your knarr trip....

I think there should be less rivers, but maybe some bigger ones. Small amount of really big rivers that go across the whole map.
Kind of like some posters have stated above.
First, a big and wide river, then some smaller rivers branch off it, and some smaller rivers branch off that, but then, no more rivers, then it ends.

Also, you should be unable to use larger ships such as knarr in the smaller river branches. You would have to use smaller boats on them. Knarrs would be mainly for travelling the big rivers. Maybe players could build big harbours in various points of the really wide and large rivers that cross the world.

No idea how difficult it is to generate branching rivers.


Kind of like this, but more of them.

[MagicManICT]

I've played with fractal generation a bit... nothing so complex as to what is done with modern art, but the branching rivers, trees, and such are some of the easier aspects...

As far as the current map, Just look at that part of Finland there... all those lakes and rivers. Take a look at some of the northern Great Plains in the US and Canada... similar thing--lots of small and mid-sized natural lakes, some odd water movement between them, and it all drains out in the direction of gravity. That last part is probably the thing Haven lacks.

I'm more inclined to agree with jorb on it, though I think we can have both random and varied lands along with some plausible looking worlds. It's a lot of work to come up with procedural generation that will work like that. Look at all the work the Dwarf Fortress world generator does, and that is rudimentary compared to some I've seen described in literature and theory.

[Onep]

I'm a big geography and history nerd, so I love maps. And, I have to say, it's sooo hard to generate a random map that makes sense. Because you need to take so many factors into account. The Hafen mapgen seems a bit bland, but it is a well-distributed map. Which in this scenario is more important than a realistic map.

[shubla]

As far as the current map, Just look at that part of Finland there... all those lakes and rivers. Take a look at some of the northern Great Plains in the US and Canada... similar thing--lots of small and mid-sized natural lakes, some odd water movement between them, and it all drains out in the direction of gravity. That last part is probably the thing Haven lacks.

Comparing haven & hearth map generation to the lakes of Finland is an insult. And I hope all bad to you because of it.

[LadyGoo]

I just zoomed into Sweden map. Looks like Hafen for me.

[Granger]

I think that adding 'realistic' bodies of water, in terms of rivers running towards the sea and don't go against gravity, would do a lot for suspension of disbelief when it comes to the map.

[shubla]

I just zoomed into Sweden map. Looks like Hafen for me.

Look closer, they are not all connected to each other by rivers. Some are connected by small streams at most.

[LadyGoo]

Look closer, they are not all connected to each other by rivers. Some are connected by small streams at most.

I do not think that disconnecting the rivers or making everything just like RL will serve the game well. Water travels were good because you would have significantly smaller chance of getting killed by local bandits, authorities and etc. You would not have to have pay taxes either for passing someone's land. You did not need to feed your boat, while carriage animals would need the care and rest. None of this applies to haven. You would just get people avoiding using knarrs and preferring crossroad/horseback travels and that is it. It would also take considerable amount if dev's time. I'd rather see some new curios being implemented.