Stat cap as complex game mechanic

[ctopolon3]

just not show character with x2difference in stats on screen ( and map ) \\mb display only character soul to chat with


cant see cant hurt
wanna pvp get all stats 300 character and go fun (like in valhalla)

[Luanes]

Agree that the idea is too complex, but I'm pointing the concept behind it:

1 - A dynamic cap that increases as the world progress;
2 - Possibility to surpass the "world cap" with some drawbacks ( as less eficiency, temporary stats or something that we might figure);

This is the core idea that I absorbed from the post and I really think it's a good way to work on the problem.

A cap that scales with the world basically means once a character hits the cap, they'll just stockpile some food/curios and use them whenever the cap increases. They'll effectively be out of the game for the rest of the world, and one of the reasons I think ideas like these are terrible.

The idea proposes that players need to try surpass the world cap in order to increase the world cap. So, if people just stockpile food/curios, the world cap will not increase. So there's no reason to stockpile.

I'm totally against the decay, I feel it hurts the player too much on what he already accomplished, but I don't feel that a modifier on his growth, after hitting some cap, would hurt it too much.

[Granger]

I'm totally against the decay,

You just come from the opposit side.

Agree that the idea is too complex, but I'm pointing the concept behind it:

1 - A dynamic cap that increases as the world progress;
2 - Possibility to surpass the "world cap" with some drawbacks ( as less eficiency, temporary stats or something that we might figure);

You realize that it effectively dosn't make a difference (effort wise) if the numbers in your character sheet shrink (unless you refill them) -or- the world natural qualities (stuff like foragables, rock hardnessm mob levels/combat capabilities, ... - to keep them meaningful) need be made to grow constantly (to keep up with the stuff characters can do) so interaction with the world dosn't become meaningless?

Sure, there is a difference: the latter solution fucks ones that didn't start at the beginning or kept at it constantly, thus it wouldn't rid us of this topic.

[Saergof]

>stat cap is bad
>stat decay is bad
I'm trying to use established terms. Not talking about usual stat cap as at any point with given system there remains a possibility to advance further.
Also I'm not talking about usual stat decay, when earned character numbers just disappear: here a fraction of "decay" is used to advance other parameters of system, and significant fraction is used to advance personal, character-related parameter, preserving the constant, non-detacheble advantage achieved from hard work, although scaling it down.

A cap that scales with the world basically means once a character hits the cap, they'll just stockpile some food/curios and use them whenever the cap increases.

Thank you for pointing that out, I havent considered such possiblity. Yet just this is not a problem with given system as I see it now: that way you can rest on "the world cap" level. But to receive permanent advantage, to lift your personal cap relative to the world cap, you have to continue the grind.

Luanes, thank you for your kind words and for taking time to figure out the details.

[Saergof]

I see that the proposed practical solution does not seem very appealing, for one reason or dozen, heheheh.

Let's then discard PROPOSED IMPLEMENTATION and switch to BASIC IDEA. So, now I'm basically trying to tell the same tale, only in more abstract manner. I'm not adding a slightest thing now, all was in the first post.

1.The world have a kind of CAP on stats.
2.Players push it further with a some kind of effort/passive taxation on them.
3.While doing 2), players can develop PERSONAL BONUS, that allows to make past the current point of CAP for that particular character, rewarding the hard workers and giving them advantage over the mob.
4.Kingdoms can give similar bonus, further pushing the CAP to their inhabitants.
5.The cap is more like SOFT CAP than HARD CAP because there is a possibility to level past it, but, depending how far the leveling goes, VARIOUS PENALTIES start to apply. There may be several stages of leveling past the cap, at each various things may happen. I've tried to invent examples of such penalties, thinking about ways how it may not punish player, but ALTER HIS GAME FLOW instead, but nothing better than "hero quests" came into mind. Then, the entire "tax to push the cap" thing in the first post was imagined as implemented through the stat decay.
6.The death of highly advanced character also influences CAP, shifting it further up.

Edit: to sum it up again, trying to distinguish secondary aspects from the core: the details may vary, but STAT CAP SHOULD BECOME A DYNAMIC GAME MECHANIC <- the most compressed form of the mere core of the thought.

[LadyGoo]

post

So, in a nutshell, you want the players to quickly reach the certain cap and put an extra effort (maintenance, tedium, all the boring stuff, punishing/penalty mechanics) for pushing it forward?
Man, people hate all sorts of caps. Even the marginal ones (saw people losing the motivation to play just bc they could not spiral their trees further). Whatever way you place it, the cap is a cap and it affects the player base's moral.

Once the main goals are reached and the base is built the game starts its imminent decay. Putting a cap is another way to reach that main goal thing and be like "I've done what I could, idk what else to do". Increasing the decay/stat caps won't help it at all. It's not like there is a dragon that could be killed by 50 of 5000 stated characters and the loot would give them all a great push for industry (like, getting 1000+ for your anvil, or getting a hammer that has a higher chance of duplicating items and etc.). Then the caps would have meaning and the game would be more about gathering those 50 men and equipping them.

[Fierce_Deity]

I think an implementation of stat decay would work better than any sort of growing cap. That said, I dislike calling it stat decay because I like the term stat regression better. I think stats should decay at a certain rate, but only down to half of what you have ever reached. Along with that, it would be easier to gain stats back that you have previously attained.(More bonus feps/cheaper abilities the farther you are from what was once attained) Eventually you would reach a threshold that you find you can maintain without gorging food every day. So rather than completely losing stats you've once reached, you'll find it easier to reclaim previously attained heights. I talked about this a little here too: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=59967&start=50

[Saergof]

LadyGoo, I think I understand your point. Glad to see you mention the case when caps achieve the meaning from your point of view, because I'm looking for extending, not for reducing of game activities. Neither for silver bullet for existing problems. Something about the possibility of introducing another (small) dimension of play, about how may look the groundwork to giving the means to the single character on influencing "the big picture" in a formalized stat-like manner, but not kingdom-like as kingdoms as far as I see is about something little different. To be able to influence the world itself. Not in a larpy, but in formalized manner. For that the world itself must have accessible parameters. The soft cap that requires pushing forward looks as obvious starting "seedling". Then who knows what can come in hand: mutually exclusive ways to influence the environment?..

Second premise is a thought about way to unevenly slow down the character progression in a way that was not tried before. In my opinion, in the end either you have a sort of caps or you have titans dominating the landscape. I personally don't regard either of these things as bad at the moment, but the dichotomy is clear. Given that, I find that the presence of limiter (given you have the means to deal with that limiter) is MORE DYNAMIC or INTERESTING situation than the perspective of straightforward growing. Talking from the perspective "how I would like to play/to grow my character", not "how I would like to see others playing". So of course, ideal case is such when the gameflow slows the progression not by attributing the drag to stat gain, but by requiring the player to switch activity, "you can't level further by just eating pies, something different is required". But it can be viewed as even more radical enforcement: if the stat is the ultimate value, then any activity can be viewed as unnecessary complication on the road to achieving the value, and the whole effort to diversify the game is pointless.

Can't agree with "the cap is always cap" so far: the psychological aspect (I mean "how I perceive the thing") of gamedesign influences players tremendously, so there is always hypothetical possibility to invent "a bitter pill" but wrap it in fancy enough package.

So, in a nutshell, you want the players to quickly reach the certain cap and put an extra effort (maintenance, tedium, all the boring stuff, punishing/penalty mechanics) for pushing it forward?

Put extra effort: yes. Make it necessary boring: well, if the wordplay aspect needs to be introduced, no more boring than usual. So far it don't seems to me as completely radical, breaking the things change. Also numbers can mean the difference between heaven and hell.

[Aceb]

Having a cap and just being slow later doesn't seems like a same punishing / extra effort.

Ideally, You should always develop quick, but there should be a point where it becomes harder and harder, but not impossible and still achieveable. If there's no way of limit eating, this is a great idea, that could use a tweak or two.

It might also lead to situation where more people can get into combat, maybe?
depending on how food might rework, possible opening for drinks to make the difference?




Also it could be nice if there was a point after trading, like wars for kingdoms, resources other than natural or something. The most stimulating way to develop and gain upperhand is war or rivalry of faction after all.

[LadyGoo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LScL4CWe5E

The graph above represents just what happens in hafen. The game is exciting in the beginning and has the stress + relief points. While the continuous progression keeps the tension constantly. The caps just cuts the game itself (bring artificial end). The stat decay creates even more tension. Probably, this is why the devs still want to do the seasons to have this tension - release thing which is absolutely necessary as the people seem to play periodically (3 months of gameplay - quitting for the same amount before thinking of returning). But there also should be some kind of milestones to progress further and look forward.

When you are just starting, you have to wait for the flax, beehives and etc. But once your base is set, you have to constantly look after everything.