Make alt insiding punishable?

[Granger]

Banning wouldn't work anyway, unless we could tie an account to the DNA of the user running it - apart from the problems with identical twins... hopefully, as it would imply living in dystopia, this will never happen.

The problem with inside spies is the full destruction they're able to cause by creating a successful breach. The only real way to fix that would be a siege system that limits the amout of destruction that could be caused - but IIRC it's rather hard to have a constructive discussion about how such a thing could be made to work. Such a discussion would be needed though, as the current binary outcome of siege (spies or not) isn't working that well.

[Aceb]

The only real solution is more options in permission page and nails to tie down some things.

[Burinn]

Banning wouldn't work anyway, unless we could tie an account to the DNA of the user running it - apart from the problems with identical twins... hopefully, as it would imply living in dystopia, this will never happen.

The problem with inside spies is the full destruction they're able to cause by creating a successful breach. The only real way to fix that would be a siege system that limits the amout of destruction that could be caused - but IIRC it's rather hard to have a constructive discussion about how such a thing could be made to work. Such a discussion would be needed though, as the current binary outcome of siege (spies or not) isn't working that well.

This hits the nail on the head. It's a more complicated problem than most people are willing to admit.

[Sholom]

First of all, no it wouldnt and second of all do you think this is a bad thing? New players actually being included in the game is somehow bad?
When I first played Eve online there were 3 large factions that were recruiting noobs and they had a whole infrastructure to supply them with the basics and give them training / show them the ropes so you can actually enjoy Eve how its meant to be played. I was able to join one of the gigantic mega-faction wars within first couple of weeks.

But no you think noobs should be confined to hermitages and shanty towns, where they belong right? I remember when I first started on W5 I wanted to actually play the game but had to play hermit since I didnt know anybody. I think it was W7 when I started with a bigger group of people of friends from other games which allowed me to get foot in the door to actually playing the game properly because we merged with another group.

This is not bad and I am not saying this should not be allowed, but I would not advise that.
This game is enjoyable at different stages in a different way. And I dare to say first time noob experience is the best and the most thrilling. I would rather encourage noobs to embrace it. This is the time most veteran players are nostalgic about.
Then you get your mid game, if you stick. When you think you know all, unite with a couple of friends and have your first local conflicts.
And then there are factions and politics. If you jump into that right away, you are hugely missing out on the game experience, not getting included it it as you said.

Imagine if it is like you say and factions are all trying really hard to compete for new player recruitment, I think this would be a 100x better new player experience than current.

Competing for players is great, but it should be encouraged via making you want to lure newbs into your realm (not your main town) by game mechanics, not by making recruiting safe.

That's why I said in my first post that "any public village which evolve beyond a shanty town" get alt killed. I remember a specific village earlier in this world that was forum recruiting and I found them in game and I remember just feeling sorry for them because they progressed too much and I KNEW they were just a ticking time bomb (they died to alt). Have you also noticed how new brodgar is not a thing any more, even their style of separated plots didnt stop them getting alt killed in I think it was W9.

Open villages are not supposed to progress over a certain point, because recruiting isn't supposed to be safe. You put it as a bad thing, but to me it seems entirely reasonable. Social game is a part of the game and ability to tell who is your friend and who is a backstabbing bastard is one of foundations of creating a successful faction. And you are supposed to make mistakes on that part. Politics are fun. Relationships between players are fun. Spy games are fun.
What was no fun is summoning entire enemy army inside, but that's long fixed.


I thought you weren't serious on the banning part and just assumed you mention it as an example, because you don't know the solution and founding it is open for debate.
But if that's actually what you mean, then...
Well, I can't even begin the endless list of reasons it can not possibly work in hnh.
But either way, I am 100% sure any existing faction would give one banned account or ip for a chance at doing an inside job. And then how would banning a person help the destroyed town? Or you also suggest rollbacks? Then they would exploit this for rollbacks, lol.
And where does insiding start? Is it insiding when you share info about their online hours, combat power, etc? or is it only insiding if the town was successfully raided?

[MightySheep]

But either way, I am 100% sure any existing faction would give one banned account or ip for a chance at doing an inside job. And then how would banning a person help the destroyed town? Or you also suggest rollbacks? Then they would exploit this for rollbacks, lol.
And where does insiding start? Is it insiding when you share info about their online hours, combat power, etc? or is it only insiding if the town was successfully raided?

The way it worked in Wurm was basically up to GM common sense whether they think its abuse or not and the whole point of consequences for crime is a DETERRENT, you cant put back something that is already broken but you can prevent it happening in the first place. I'm sure big factions might go the length to VPN etc if they felt it was worth it but thats like saying because you can bypass chat filter using symbols theres no point of having chat filter, or because a thief can mask their face theres no point having security cameras. I'm sure you get the point. It's worth it if the offenders at least fear the risk of IP ban and have to keep quiet or risk GMs finding out. Rather than the usual making thread and boasting for 20 pages like "LOL OWNED WE GOT U GOOD".

I dont know why you keep saying its like some fun social game, I actually find it really boring because it mostly only happens to a specific type of people: New-ish but competent enough to progress to a decent raid-worthy village. So the end result is this game barely seen new decent groups. Unless they come to this game with a full premade group they have to recruit and if they have to recruit they will die to an alt. It's almost inevitable.

[jorb]

Not going to spend time investigating and verifying a million accusations of strange social interactions, no. Open to mechanical suggestions to improve on the actual problem presented.

[Mario_Demorez]

Not going to spend time investigating and verifying a million accusations of strange social interactions, no. Open to mechanical suggestions to improve on the actual problem presented.

Village permission based off groups. Then give permissions via a much better claiming system than village cairns. That way someone can make their security as simple or as complicated as they won’t. A village has way more jobs than there are colors that your game supplies, number system COULD work but naming the group would ease organization. Remove cairns that are used in villages, they are ugly and most of the time in the way. They only claim 31x31 area and each have their own menu. Is there a reason we can’t build one object for one specific area and select the area it contains, in a polygon shape if needed. Make the thing cost steel or whatever, just make it possible please.

[loftar]

Is there a reason we can’t build one object for one specific area and select the area it contains

You already can, that's what the field cairn does.

[Mario_Demorez]

Is there a reason we can’t build one object for one specific area and select the area it contains

You already can, that's what the field cairn does.

A square that can only be 31x31, when villages are 200x200 with cave levels being used you’ll have to have ATLEAST 166 cairns. Each one of these cairns have to be set to a specific setting based on the same colors.

Why this is a problem...
1.) 166 cairns that you have to change each one if you make a change to security takes a while and you will probably lose count and forget one. And cairns also take up a tile. Making claiming a farm hard to do with cairns without being extremely Fucking ugly unless the farms are 30xX or less.
2.) there are more jobs in a village than there are colors. Example. Chef and a farmer. Chefs need access to the kitchen area and the farm area to gather materials. But I don’t want to give the chef vandalism on the farms. So I’ll have to make two different colors for that area. So now three colors down, including white. Why not change the system to groups by name instead of colors?

Of course I can still use cairns that already exist but building and maintaining them is tedious and not worth it. Better to just make a claim alt and make personal claims. For kinlist colors makes sense as you aren’t really going to be friends with a shit ton of people and have them all labeled by colors (you’ll just memorize their group in their name). But in a village you have farmers, miners, chef, hunters, soldiers, builders, silk, cheese, Smith’s, leatherworkers, tree farmers, drink makers, and curio makers. And many more that I can’t think of. A lot of these jobs overlap in each other’s areas making them having to be grouped together. But for example, trees are very valuable resources while normal crops for food and mass crafting aren’t super important. If we have a new player join that we don’t know very well we have to either not give him perms to farm or lock him up in a large area with crops away from our trees. Instead we could just place him into a group called “Farmer” and he only has vandalism on the farms.

[SaltyCrate]

Not going to spend time investigating and verifying a million accusations of strange social interactions, no. Open to mechanical suggestions to improve on the actual problem presented.

Such mechanisms already exists: plot-based approach, where everyone in the village have their own plot and maybe some shared communal area. Especially given removing shield mechanic in the near future. The fact that some villages can't grasp such basic idea and give access of everything they own to everyone are entirely their own problem.
Also, OP exaggerates the "problem" significantly. I had known a number of open recruitment villages which hadn't met this "unavoidable" demise. Way, way more than the number of villages which did.