Purposeless content & redundancy

[Vraatjuh]

Hunger

Couldn't agree more.

Fixing this

Removing hunger in some sort seems to be the best sollution indeed.

Midges

These are by far the most annoying, no fun, absolutely pointless beings in Haven at the moment. They serve absolutely no purpose other then annoying the shit out of you for no reason.
Them being in a swamp is a nice addition, but pleeeease just let them stay there.

Roads

Sort of agree.

Traveling over roads just takes too much travel weariness at the moment, but the fact that you cannot travel unlimited anymore is definetely a good thing in my opinion.
Not being able to travel from your village to the nearest water a few times a day because of travel weariness is just utter shit though.

QUESTS

They are indeed pretty bad at the moment.
Too important because of the rewards, but not fun at all.

Changing this to completing max 3 quests a day or something would solve a lot I think. Though some quest rewards do need a nerf (LP gain for instance)

CREDOS

Not sure what to think of this. I never get more than a few credos because it gets extremely boring afterwards to do 10+ quests per level. On the other hand it's a good thing they are not too easy, making it possible for hardcore players to gain all credos in a few weeks. Maybe an idea to have a sort of 'hunger bar' for credos, where the amount of quests you have to do for a credo drops back to the last level after 1 month or so?

A scatterbrained semi-conclusion

All things written above need some sort of changes indeed. Hard to find a good balance though I guess.

[DDDsDD999]

I've already said most of this stuff scattered around previous threads, and I agree with most of the OP.

One thing I haven't said before is about how much the credo grind sucks. Credos would be cool if they were a lot more passive, e.g. I plan on fishing a lot in the coming weeks, I could start my fishing credo and make decent progress on what I was doing already without even thinking of the credo. But as it is, if you want to make progress on your credo, it's all you're doing, and you're grinding it out, and it's boring as fuck. Especially with how many quests you have to do now, it's absolutely insane to get a decent set of credos.

And then jorb adds a credo that you absolutely need mid-way through the world and will take 20 quests per level and just fucks your character completely because now the order you did them is bad.

[avros008]

I cant agree more, but for roads; travel weariness system is cool. just need to be nerfed a little.

[displaced]

I'd probably TW for roads more like a x² curve or something. So that you can travel short distances with ease (like quick travel to water).
Also teleport only if road is completely build once. (In case someone destroys one side)
With that you can make a 5 minute debuff where teleport can' be used anymore so people don't make a couple of small roads to overcome a greater distance.

That would probably help the short distances and you still won't be able to travel endless distances without consequences.


The idea of credos are probably not bad. I'd like to have the 10 per 10 exp forager credo early on.
But the worst quest design ever is hindering me. I need to eat green kelp. for my first quest.
Thanks for letting me waste 10k LP.
Perhaps 10k after the first quest is completed? So i'd have the chance to choose an easy start quest.
Or just remove the pointless randomness... It's such a lazy design to begin with.


Also I don't know if it's only me but i kind of miss the devotion option from legacy... maybe not the exact mechanic but something similar.

[GamingRAM]

What a clusterfuck and jorb shouldn't have re-opened this. It should have been made into separate threads.

Hunger:

I wouldn't want to completely get rid of this, as I can see it being useful for the survival elements of this game. Seriously, survival should be emphasis'd a bit more. I can agree that linking FEP and Energy/Starvation can be a problem and does encourage alts, but to completely get rid of it is a no go from me. Being able to dig up tens of thousands of dirt or dozens of houses without needing to eat is silly to me, and I say that as a builder who likes to make large scale projects.


Midges:

Yea there should be a way to deal with them, and/or limit them to swamps/bogs.


Roads:

As a worker of CF, I like the new road nerf.


Quests:

Eh, they just need to be nerfed a bit. Maybe something where a quest giver's own "level" can be raised by regularly going to it, much like how they can boost nearby resources.


Credos:

You're trolling. The reason people killed themselves was because it made completing credos easier, this has since been fixed.

I'm on my 4th credo now, Nomad, and the only issue I'm having is that it wants to me travel to another continent. A bit of a problem, but should be fixed with the hopefully soon new boat.
I find credos fun. Sometimes they can be infuriating, but I have done far more traveling and exploration than I have done before.


Jorb, you really should take the time you read this, and then close it for real. You're encouraging more grab-bags like this.

[Massa]

I'd probably TW for roads more like a x² curve or something. So that you can travel short distances with ease (like quick travel to water).
Also teleport only if road is completely build once. (In case someone destroys one side)
With that you can make a 5 minute debuff where teleport can' be used anymore so people don't make a couple of small roads to overcome a greater distance.

That would probably help the short distances and you still won't be able to travel endless distances without consequences.


The idea of credos are probably not bad. I'd like to have the 10 per 10 exp forager credo early on.
But the worst quest design ever is hindering me. I need to eat green kelp. for my first quest.
Thanks for letting me waste 10k LP.
Perhaps 10k after the first quest is completed? So i'd have the chance to choose an easy start quest.
Or just remove the pointless randomness... It's such a lazy design to begin with.


Also I don't know if it's only me but i kind of miss the devotion option from legacy... maybe not the exact mechanic but something similar.

On the contrary.

The abuse was constant travel to nearby quest trees.

Long distance travel is fine, and I think a simple daily cap would be good. Long distance travel is mostly for trade hubs and shit. Way benign.

[jock]

I 110% agree with roads and quests do need a rework.

Roads need reverting to the previous world BUT they should give free travel ONLY within a realm. Encourages growth and more rewards for building larger realms. This gives you a hybrid of both current and previous.

Quests should never give LP, the Xp is more than enough to use meditation and contemplation, this should be the main focus of quests in giving you the xp to invest.
With the other rewards, quests are still good enough.
I suggested a change here: http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=63427

[Vassteel]

im fine with midges.

hunger has turned into something excessively heavyhanded. there still should be a downside to eating to much players shouldn't be an all food consuming black hole.

credos def need a look at with the loss of credo resetting and the way they scale is a bit excessive I say reducing the current difficulty by at least half.

yes I know people just suggest making a different alt for each specialized credo but not everyone wants to play like that. if someone wants to but in the extra effort and keep goin for credos then let them. I don't want to play the same role through the entire lifespan of the world I like switching it up keeps the game as interesting as I can make it. the way it is right now its just a fast track to burnout and going back to other games. and a loss of revenue for you.

[Lojka]

i think this problems starts when you go high-league.

All this is not a problem when you start playing and learn all new things.

Hunger... i don't eat only 1 type of food, there is berries, mushrooms, baked... many types
I don't know how it will be at 200 FEP, but maybe this is natural softcap, so players won't get 1k+ numbers ?

And with credos, you can look at this same way, they are not supposed to be got in first month, jsut relax and they will be done eventually

-----
for me main problem is - that some players have problems with going more than 100 str, because i can't compete with them in combat, so if i take rage they can just kill me

[Avu]

I would like to have a collective thread in which we provide feedback for Jorb about how some particular pieces of content are poorly executed, need fixes in some capacity, or are utterly redundant.
Please, feel free to help with your opinions on these matters so we don't have to "scream just to get attention" from Jorb & Lorb, and to centralize actual feedback from the "docks pls", "bridges plz", "gunpowder plz", "x tiny critter pens/tanks", "x random, inconsequential aesthetic/furniture" threads.

This is a new world, which means now is a crucial moment to coax the game into growing with engaging, enjoyable content that serves a purpose - currently, there are simply a set of glaring issues that are really wearing down lots of players who stand on their own two legs and warrant an ear simply because of the longevity and value they add to the game & how long they stick to it. This list is in no order.

Hunger

This is a redundancy, but it's derivative of quests as a whole.

Hunger serves the same purpose as satiations, both of which step all over each other, and turn it into a double dickdown and a stupid headache. First of all, satiation numbers are stupid. You eat one sausage, and within 1-3 sausages, you can bet your sausages are now 40% shittier. This will only get worse, and after you've stuffed no more than 6 sausages down your throat, you can go back to netflix, or sitting in your chair, larping as a tree whisperer or some shit because your sausages are arbitrarily at 10% power because you ate too many of them even though that's the entire purpose of the efficacy system. They overlap and are stupid as fuck. This system doesn't need review or consideration, one or the other needs gone.

It heavily encourages nothing but alts for every little thing, never leaving your base for shit, and waiting, and turns the game into a boring song of 2 hour cycles that people will eventually just automate or get bored and slowly dwindle away because they can't be bothered to put in the hours of a full time job to dedicate to eating sausages and cheese wedges. Sprucecaps lowkey complained enough to get this whole shitty system turned on the heads of people who actually want to be bother with the game.

This system is the most punishing to miners. I guess funworms and slimes weren't bad enough, having to constantly shovel food into your mouth just to play the game (and thus, fuck up your hunger AND satiations so your stats are basically permashit) is a good part of it. Trying to do any demanding tasks, stamina-wise, just fucks your FEPS/Satiations/hunger up so bad. This was all of W10 too, but tolerable at least, between salt and drinking and simply ignoring it.

Fixing this

The simple solution is to remove hunger efficacy and leave it at a flat rate (150% or 200% seem good) - while this fucks up quest rewards, I'll get back to that later & on top of this change, drastically (REDUCE) the amount of satiations gained, so eating one piece of sausage puts you back 3% instead of 40%. The old numbers worked fine for this.

Agreed and I will stress the two separate issues.
Hunger. It's complete shit for all the stated reasons. Optimal way to play is a bot that feeds you one food at a time at the border of 300% to 200%. It will happen.
Satiations. Are retarded. The sausage example is one of the most glaring but it's compounded with meat, some debuf both and the final value is multiplied into values going way towards 0. Taken together there is really little to no point in making sausage. Damnit Jorb I thought you loved the sausage...

Midges

This one is a personal pet peeve of mine, and serves as (largely) purposeless content.

Why the fuck are they anywhere outside of swamps? They only thing these things do is discourage stepping away from your computer within your own walls. Just let these guys get stuck in swamps. They (and allergic reactions) are a perfect example of arbitrary shittiness. They should only exist in swamps to discourage bots and camping alts, but their keenness to spread through civilization as some Jorbian reminder that you are evil for sitting outside of your stone steadings and that the midge death that awaits you is just dumb and weird. Make these less purposeless and make their purpose (and any content like them) have a clear purpose. Right now they just make everything a bit shittier.

Have walls block the damn midgets if you don't get rid of them.

Roads

This was a kneejerk reaction to a roundabout issue: questing.

Roads were good. They had their purpose. Though that purpose might have been abused, spending an hour walking to a point of interest is boring as fuck, and will turn the bulk of this game into exactly that: boring as fuck, getting stuck on trees, avoiding the boars suspiciously meandering straight towards your path, cliffs over and over and over and over again, over the same area, repeatedly, because of a needless nerf to the means, and not the end, of a different system.

Roads were used to bring lots of villages together, and one of the biggest unifications of player efforts to create a handful of huge trade hubs that were good for the game. Amazing for the game. You should get the warm fuzzies when you see community events, games, tournaments, etc. hosted by and built by players because that's where Haven, ideally, would go. That is stellar engagement, and now it's crushed under a weird heel.

Get rid of this travel weariness nerf and figure something else out because between continents and a lack of instantaneous travel (which some people bemoan but I also don't think they actually play the game) will take its toll on the general player engagement of the game.

PvP will also die down because getting to the meat of the game and competing with other players isn't hard, it's borderline inaccessible. You can't get to other people, and even if you can, there's a convenient "HEY YOU'RE FUCKED IN 24 HOURS GO BREAK THE SIEGE ENGINE."

I wasn't around to experience quest roads so no idea how broken they are probably broken, but that is why you put a cooldown on quests not fuck up roads.

How about you rework the damn things though. They should come with the path you walk on if you follow the road visible when placed and you should be able to just terraform+ stomp + pave (at a reduced cost) from the posts for each section especially since terrain crossed matters. You right click a post select teraform road select which way to do it then choose between level, stomp, pave (different pavements can be implemented), it builds a sign that you can then fill with mats and work on. Vandalizing these sections should be impossible without destroying the ends and only people with claimed end access can do modification on the road. The tiles of the road should be exempt from decay as long as the road has been used in the last x days.

Remove any min travel weariness. For close roads that you travel often you'll just pave with the speediest/least weariness stuff and for long ass stuff you can just do the bare minimum stomping.

QUESTS
These are the source of your problems and the reason it was time for a wipe.

They don't need minor adjustments, but entire reworks.
- Remove the hunger reduction and remove the hunger efficacy system.
- Keep LP rewards, but keep them rare and much less scaled as they were last world by your stats.
- Keep EXP rewards, both of these incentivize doing quests but aren't wildly gamebreaking as 100K+ rewards from hubbed givers.
- Rewrite the entire (+x quality boost to y in this area) because it's utter dog ass.*
*My personal input on this particular system is an item. An item that, when activated, through some means (even simply using it), buffs an area's x/y/z by a/b/c quality. A little item akin to a gilding rock that players can trade and use in an area up to a certain cap or with diminishing returns. Nobody cares about upping the fox quality to 27 from 26, but if they can focus it? That's good content.
- Buff gilding trinkets.
- Think of another creative reward. Numen, anyone? EInherjarspekt and shit. Prayer for a metal, or bread, was it? Jorb and Lorb can be creative, it's no secret.

Agreed all sound like good things to do.

CREDOS

On god, the people who haven't done more than 2 or 3 credos are the ones infatuated by the idea of credos in their current form. You can see why people killed their highly developed characters instead of doing credos: it's because credos were ass. The simple and pure distillation it.

They were the summation of this slew of gripes. They are boring walkfests where you had to oftentimes surrender yourself to RNG, dumb luck, silly bullshit and randomness to, not be better at something, but be allowed by the game to do something because, without the credo, you are bad and worthless. I once spent 3 weeks waking up every 2 days to a new player in my village because my friend considered it more worth his time to bomb his character into repeat suicides than actually do credos 'the right way' because of how they scale. They are ridiculous.

Now? I'm already hearing people in and outside of my village ready to quit weeks in before they spend the 32*5 step quest requirements for a single later-game credo. You had tons of feedback, and listened to none of it in any meaningful capacity. Specializations? Seriously? After the talk of the town and Lorb and Jorb about reducing the need for alts, remove specialization, adding lore and will and masonry and a million silly stats to encourage well rounded characters, a system of specialization is forced. To do even a few of the higher end credos would take literal months, be utterly unrewarding, and cause to simply stop playing.

So many people said credos were silly, and instead of a positive change to them, they are just another sad change that doesn't reflect well on the direction of where people want to spend their time and efforts.

That's not to say there shouldn't be challenge involved in getting them, but 160 quests, often in multiple parts, each of which are highly demanding (go experience a dryad, study 5x random piece of 40 mental weight shit, and gain 20 will!) is a good way to not fucking bother with that shit.

A scatterbrained semi-conclusion

Instead of playing the game, people go and play grab ass with Auslafognaosnloppberg and berglorg and, as I said earlier, get very fucking bored of it because it's boring. Quests take fucking forever to complete even if you're efficient, and getting better otters out of it when you need your stomach unfucked so you can stuff sausages down it is dumb. This is time you can't spend building your village, or playing the game, hunting, doing anything of value, because if you did, your hunger would be fucked up and you'd have to do more quests.

People want to play the game, compete with other players, build, create. They don't want to spend hours walking across annoying obstacles that weren't quite annoying enough on their own to warrant being changed. If the choice is between building, working for resources, competing in an inherently competitive game or, instead, running around getting stuck on trees and being bored by being forced by the game to touch random trees with names who ask you to do silly things like touch other trees, the answer should be clear.

Agreed again. Figure out a system to max the amount of quests you need to do for higher number of credos. You already have to do more credos why do they also need to cost more with each new one. I thought we disliked alts.

I think the direction Jorb and Lorb keep taking the game is one of punitive, negative reinforcement where the path to growing and getting people to buy more hats and actually want to play the game is by enabling creativity, rather than punishing it. The abuse of certain systems can be fixed, but when it's so wildly heavy handed and sometimes random (see mining before adjustment) it discourages people to play, because it tells them the game is becoming too constricted and that their reward is further tedium.

The updates we've been getting have been frequently untested and generally not very good for anything. I'll skip the list, but the simple question to ask is whether or not the update encourages player interaction, game interaction, engagement, if it has a purpose and is what Jorb and Loftar would be willing to spend hundreds or dozens of hours doing, because that is what they're putting out for the game.

Some seriously good changes came about on Monday where Jorb engaged player feedback and made reasonable changes to a very heavy handed system. Shit goes a long way.

This is the story of the game one step forward two steps back, a few steps forward followed by massive fun killing steps back.