Rage Counterpart/Nidbane replacement

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Rage Counterpart/Nidbane replacement

Postby MooCow » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:43 am

Any suggestion that assumes that there can be a distinction between good and bad scents will fail because the assumption that there is a distinction between good and bad scents is false.

The only crime that even comes close to having good and bad guys is theft. This is only because the concept of ownership is simple enough that a machine can understand it, justice is not.

Granger wrote:I suggested once that a different set of scents should be generated on your actions when you're in posession of scents from your opponent - and also a different set of scents should be generated in case you defend against an attacker.

Wasn't that liked by the PvP players for some reason they were unable to clearly express.


I remember that thread, or at least one exactly like it. The idea of having different scents produced for avenging crimes is acceptable, but the issue is that the pvp players can, and want, to create their own justice. Having reduced sentencing for revenge simply doesn't help the endless blood war they want to wage.

It is only hermits like me that are incapable of creating justice, but this OPs system will literally only make that worse.
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Re: Rage Counterpart/Nidbane replacement

Postby Kaios » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:40 am

zaramoth wrote:So the partial point of the idea of making Ranging be the counter action to Rage is that Rage and the skills locked behind it are "bad guy" skills in that in most scenarios a player using them would be doing so in order to hard another player or their property. Ranging is supposed to be the "good guy" and should mean that a player in the middle (someone without rage or ranging) who gets forced into combat by a player with Rage should not leave scents for battery/murder if the combat comes to that point because it was self defense.


Don't get me wrong I like the idea of ranging being a more involved skill but in my opinion there are too many possibilities for a player to commit a crime that from their perspective would be deemed justifiable to have a system that tries to account for that, it would probably be easier to figure out something that had no bias in either regard but still gave players some more capability to enact their own justice. I don't necessarily view Rage or any of the criminal type skills as inherently bad, there are plenty of situations in which players are forced to leave scents even though they may be the defenders or acting in retaliation at the time.

I dont know how an Arena summon could be abused, where both players are summoned into a cellar like area with no objects or terrain variance and have to fight to the death to leave, but i still prefer the entering towns side instead.


I just meant that having a mechanic in which a player could be summoned via scents has proven to be problematic in the past, as there was a time when you could intentionally leave scents and break your hearthfire so that someone elsewhere carrying those scents of yours could then summon you to where ever they happened to be, like inside someone else's village or in the middle of a fight. The arena thing sounds more fair but also a bit strange, if you're tracking them to their village anyways chances are they are afk or logged out so forcing them in to a fight where no one else could assist them is rather overpowered in my view.

Part of why a Ranger would feel better/safer about entering a town of criminals is that the maneuver they have is designed to allow them to 1v1 the target of violent crimes. You could even potentially give them a grace period after leaving combat with their target where they could hearth without being attackable


But before that I assume they would be attack-able and I'd rather not see a mechanic that allows a player to by-pass visitor so if they do enter a village under visitor then after getting aggrod someone else could evict them from the claim knocking them out (and then probably murdering them with relative ease). By-passing visitor just feels like it opens up too much possibility for abuse though, whatever they do they should be able to do it while under visitor status or get in through a normal gate, track the player when they are online, or siege the claim like everyone else.

Like I said though I do feel Ranging needs some love but I think you should come at it from the angle that a scent is just a clue towards the overall picture and a Ranger that is true to their craft will endeavor to enact fair justice upon those who are deserving.
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Re: Rage Counterpart/Nidbane replacement

Postby bmjclark » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:00 am

Granger wrote:I suggested once that a different set of scents should be generated on your actions when you're in posession of scents from your opponent - and also a different set of scents should be generated in case you defend against an attacker.

Wasn't that liked by the PvP players for some reason they were unable to clearly express.


I mean, I can think of a few reasons pretty easily. You kill my friend, I can't find you for 9 days until the scent expires. I finally see you 10 days later (i know because i have you memo'd), i kill you. Im a criminal now for avenging my friend. You could make it so that after you kill someone you're forever a criminal, but what if you were running through my cave breaking my mine supports and i wanted to kill you to stop you doing this shit. What if you stole my horse while I was out and about and i attacked you for it? The fact is there are plenty of scentless things you can do to deserve getting knocked out and having your shit stolen. Advantages for tracking scents goes both ways here.
Cajoes wrote:I was the murder victim your guy aggro'd. And slew. Entirely unprovoked. Rather handily at that. Which prompted the retaliatory party. That you also handily slew.
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Re: Rage Counterpart/Nidbane replacement

Postby DDDsDD999 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:21 am

Any meaningful differentiation between scents and revenge scents makes the game into alt spamming.
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Re: Rage Counterpart/Nidbane replacement

Postby MooCow » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:38 am

bmjclark wrote:I mean, I can think of a few reasons pretty easily. You kill my friend, I can't find you for 9 days until the scent expires. I finally see you 10 days later (i know because i have you memo'd), i kill you. Im a criminal now for avenging my friend. You could make it so that after you kill someone you're forever a criminal, but what if you were running through my cave breaking my mine supports and i wanted to kill you to stop you doing this shit. What if you stole my horse while I was out and about and i attacked you for it? The fact is there are plenty of scentless things you can do to deserve getting knocked out and having your shit stolen. Advantages for tracking scents goes both ways here.


This is exactly why there can never be scentless justice. For people that have difficulty understanding this, don't think of scents being the mark of something wrong, but an event notable enough that it might need require retribution.

Having slightly different scents, or reduced durations for avenging similar acts is not inherently bad. I don't think it is really a the best idea, but it isn't terrible. The real problem is when you add things like the OP where you can do whatever because you are one of the "good guys".

LOL I traded you stolen goods now I take it back for free lolol
OMG I tricked you into attacking my alt that had 1hhp, now I get to kill you :D
Such justice, much improvement
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Re: Rage Counterpart/Nidbane replacement

Postby Pan_w_okularach » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:42 am

hey bro, I got a solution for you: buy rage
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Re: Rage Counterpart/Nidbane replacement

Postby Embers » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:53 pm

How about a scent of player interaction handholding. I.e. whenever you interact with anyone you leave a handholding player interaction scent, once the new scent is in your inventory you can craft a social advice scent , by using which the game will pm the owner of the scent about how he should've acted, reminding them not to be bad,not to misgender others and spread positivity
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