Local Pools and Civilization

[SnuggleSnail]

Why punish somebody for going outside their walls in a limited area by having local pools?
Why punish people with close neighbors by having local pools?
Why punish people for traveling a long distance that happens to involve crossing populated areas?
Why are you concerned about a bot's interaction with global pools when the only foragables people bot (glimmermoss, pearls+flotsams, cave clay) are cared about for such a limited about of time that moving the bot to a new location isn't a problem, or in the case of pearls already imply a lot of pathing between areas.
Why make a complicated system that achieves basically nothing except potentially confusing new players when you could just... Have everything be a random% to spawn.

Botting foragables, even pearls to the degree you can study them isn't even powerful anymore(altho if global pools are removed IMO pearl LP/H should be slightly nerfed). IDK why you guys don't just want a static % to spawn. It really seems like you're trying to compromise a slightly less bad mechanic instead of a bad mechanic, when you could have a not bad mechanic instead of a bad mechanic.

[Sevenless]

Why punish somebody for going outside their walls in a limited area by having local pools?

-It's the opposite, not quite sure I made my point clearly? Going outside is good, because the more areas you visit the better.

Ah, misunderstood. Couldn't you argue that we should never have quests like nomad because they make people travel? Not everyone needs to forage, and most players who do like foraging that I've met in the past 10 years like traveling to at least a moderate degree. Just like farmers don't get gemstones when farming, some rewards get made special for some playstyles to differentiate the game. Currently there isn't really any mechanical benefits to long distance wandering other than very early world mapping expeditions.

Why punish people with close neighbors by having local pools?

-Foraging and hunting have always been competitive resources due to how haven works. If you have to limit people somehow, there will be a form of sacrifice required somewhere. We also already have issues like living too close to people causing mining competition. Haven will always have pressure to live near but not too near for mechanics outside the village walls.

Why punish people for traveling a long distance that happens to involve crossing populated areas?

-Traveling long areas to forage highly trafficked regions already doesn't make sense. You don't want to travel areas more likely to get pvp activity if you're just wandering randomly. Tough nuts I guess?

Why are you concerned about a bot's interaction with global pools when the only foragables people bot (glimmermoss, pearls+flotsams, cave clay) are cared about for such a limited about of time that moving the bot to a new location isn't a problem, or in the case of pearls already imply a lot of pathing between areas.

-Being unable to keep things like glimmers out of the hands of bots is why they're only cared about for a short time. Part of the anti-bot crusade has been nerfing forageables into the ground. If we fix the distribution system, forageables can be good again.

Why make a complicated system that achieves basically nothing except potentially confusing new players when you could just... Have everything be a random% to spawn.

-Been there in W5, we know what happens. I don't think "go to areas with less people if you want to forage cool stuff" is complicated, but you're the one that said it was You don't need to explain every detail of a system for a player to know how to interact with it.

Botting foragables, even pearls to the degree you can study them isn't even powerful anymore(altho if global pools are removed IMO pearl LP/H should be slightly nerfed). IDK why you guys don't just want a static % to spawn. It really seems like you're trying to compromise a slightly less bad mechanic instead of a bad mechanic, when you could have a not bad mechanic instead of a bad mechanic.

-Goes back to my earlier point. If we can make a solid system that isn't crazily bot distorted, we can start buffing these things to being great like they were back in very early worlds. Bots are why these things suck now. Simply removing high quality forageables entirely achieves the same effect, and people don't want that. People like cool random finds in foraging.

[SnuggleSnail]

Asking Loftar to come up with & balance some complicated system that makes foragables more powerful and adds some kind of bot counter-measures in 2 days instead of just commenting out a few lines to disable global pools and return to a completely functional system most players won't be able to differentiate from your idea is unreasonable.

[Sevenless]

Asking Loftar to come up with & balance some complicated system that makes foragables more powerful and adds some kind of bot counter-measures in 2 days instead of just commenting out a few lines to disable global pools and return to a completely functional system most players won't be able to differentiate from your idea is unreasonable.

I'm not asking this to be there world start. Global pools aren't a "if it's there at world start it has to be there forever" mechanic. This system is a very small tweak to global pools (global feeds the locals, # of fate curios produced in the world unchanged just distributed differently) instead of starting from scratch dev time wise. I think fixing this system would let forageables be buffed to be relevant endgame, so doing this mid-late world is perfectly acceptable.

And no, pure chance giga forageables are not a balanced system. You weren't there when we were exposed to the brunt of that in 2011/2012. The fact that we had that system and moved away from has a very good reason for it.

[SnuggleSnail]

Somebody studying the best foragables curios, including like Q100 pearls, the most unrealistic shit you can imagine is either not more powerful or not much more powerful than somebody with a fairly regular non-pleb study beyond the first few weeks. Studying pearls all day may have been dank in 2011, but it barely matters now.

IMO, it's rly good that you can choose between foraging, hunting, crafting or whatever to get their curios. Limiting foraging, or buffing foraging to the point it's better than the alternatives is either going to do nothing or encourage people to meta-game in an unfun way and do the thing they enjoy less for curios. There is no upsides to your suggestion verse random chance, only downsides


(((although *nerfing pearl LP/H at the same time as removing pools would be good)))

[Sevenless]

Back then the key was trade. Factions couldn't provide enough of this awesome stuff via their own production, and generally speaking production was spread out amongst the playerbase. But factions had lots of things other players wanted, so trading what factions could cheaply produce for what everyone else could make with effort became the standard. Much like queen ants gaining value for a world or two due to the power of ant farms.

If we want trade that isn't purely token based you need something factions want but aren't crippled without. You also need something they can't produce nearly enough of to fill their wants. Awesome dense curios that factions can't get enough of is the only way we've done this other than spiralling inputs. I'd argue some form of scaling curio that takes power from the study it's in would be the best way to keep them relevant, or an equivalent of a "curio spice" that consumes a curio and gives you back a buffed version of it somehow. Regular players would gladly trade that away since they couldn't get nearly the advantage from it a faction could.

Hell, if this system works well we could get rid of those god forsaken localized resources and subsume it into this system somehow.

[Fierce_Deity]

Couple ideas for the possible execution of this idea:

1. There are local pools for certain items, but you are more likely to see/get them within a supergrid of your hearthfire. Initial HF gets this bonus, moving it to another claim will delay the bonus for several days. You can certainly still see them outside your supergrid, but you have a bit more chance to do so if you live in the same area.

2. Implement smallish local pools in addition to global pools. Local pools are pulled from first, then the global pool if that areas local pool is empty. If the numbers & respawn rate are tuned from time to time then there could be a nice balance reached here. I think this idea has more merits than my first. Thoughts? Maybe global pools should be tapped first then the local pool.

[Sevenless]

Couple ideas for the possible execution of this idea:

1. There are local pools for certain items, but you are more likely to see/get them within a supergrid of your hearthfire. Initial HF gets this bonus, moving it to another claim will delay the bonus for several days. You can certainly still see them outside your supergrid, but you have a bit more chance to do so if you live in the same area.

2. Implement smallish local pools in addition to global pools. Local pools are pulled from first, then the global pool if that areas local pool is empty. If the numbers & respawn rate are tuned from time to time then there could be a nice balance reached here. I think this idea has more merits than my first. Thoughts? Maybe global pools should be tapped first then the local pool.

First one addresses snails concern, makes balancing more finnicky but that's loftar's problem in the end.

I don't like global pools being directly tapped because super foragers or bots can pull the world supply into a single location. But I've already raised my idea of Global pool produces the curios and then hands them to local pools to be foraged from.

[SnuggleSnail]

I bought thousands of bone glue and trashQ hard leather this world. Markets were always buying tarsticks, crap for bug collections, highQ bones, highQ fine clay, whale meat, pearls, guano, silver, silk, angler lights etc.

If a hermit can't figure out what he can trade now, he's not going to be able to figure out what he can trade after this change, either. If your goal is to make something desirable for factionbois, anything LP based is going to need to be ABSURD to be desirable if it can't be obtained in bulk. Your idea is diametrically opposed to people gathering in bulk.

Trying to base trade around character is kinda retarded tho, since nearly nobody competent is going to be developing a character after 3/4 months. Maybe a better goal is to make it so intermediate shitters have the ability to produce the same cool shit as the factions, instead of some trickle down garbage.

[Sevenless]

I bought thousands of bone glue and trashQ hard leather this world. Markets were always buying tarsticks, crap for bug collections, highQ bones, highQ fine clay, whale meat, pearls, guano, silver, silk, angler lights etc.

If a hermit can't figure out what he can trade now, he's not going to be able to figure out what he can trade after this change, either. If your goal is to make something desirable for factionbois, anything LP based is going to need to be ABSURD to be desirable if it can't be obtained in bulk. Your idea is diametrically opposed to people gathering in bulk.

Trying to base trade around character is kinda retarded tho, since nearly nobody competent is going to be developing a character after 3/4 months. Maybe a better goal is to make it so intermediate shitters have the ability to produce the same cool shit as the factions, instead of some trickle down garbage.

Curios aren't the only thing this system can work with, foraging does have FEP and crafting based findables as well. Ultimately the goal is to make the equivalent of gem mining for foraging again. Something that makes the average player say "Yeah I had good luck today look at what I found!" without it being something that can be/needs to get botted into oblivion. If the system works we can keep it for curios and add new things or use it to replace current undesirable systems. I'd suggest something that's about personal character gain only, but that could create some unhealthy minmaxing for factions even if plebs would be happy with it.

What did you have in mind for allowing intermediate development to craft?