It's crucial to have quests for claim and palisade

[WowGain]

at what point do we stop hand holding? if people want to be oblivious and get in to the game with out reading up on any of the player made tutorials they deserve to learn through failure.

There's like two updated tutorials. One on combat that's woefully lacking PVP info and one on claim safety that's not even pinned. There's a lot of outdated, unpinned stuff that you'd need to dig deep into "How Do I?" to find. Nothing updated for industry, food, day 1/week 1 progression, etc. I can't imagine picking up this game and playing as a hermit in its current state. You pretty much need a mentor or actively post your failures in discord/the forums to learn.

imagine having such a sensitive ego that you're afraid to admit your failures in a video game to learn from them

[Liss12]

at what point do we stop hand holding? if people want to be oblivious and get in to the game with out reading up on any of the player made tutorials they deserve to learn through failure.

There's like two updated tutorials. One on combat that's woefully lacking PVP info and one on claim safety that's not even pinned. There's a lot of outdated, unpinned stuff that you'd need to dig deep into "How Do I?" to find. Nothing updated for industry, food, day 1/week 1 progression, etc. I can't imagine picking up this game and playing as a hermit in its current state. You pretty much need a mentor or actively post your failures in discord/the forums to learn.

imagine having such a sensitive ego that you're afraid to admit your failures in a video game to learn from them

We aren't talking about someone personal growth, training montage with eye of the tiger playing in a background type shit now are we? Lack of the tutorials and obsfuscated mechanics prevent fresh meat from getting into the game. I don't think that bright future of the game is you, shubla, dole and bunch of snail's simps playing tags with other Little Engines That Could until the end of the days.

[Reiber]

Beginnings in not getting fucked up, would have been an waay more usefull tutorial than "beginning of stoneworking" for example, wich just leads to random paved tiles in forrestst and questgivers becoming empty runestones,

[Jubal_Barca]

As one of the new players (kinda - I played for a bit in 2013 or something but I've been relearning the game in the last few weeks):

I half agree with this - definitely a claims quest seems very sensible - though I think my one counterpoint should be that "literally everyone has to build a big square palisade because it's the only dominant strategy" is kind of fundamentally boring and I'd strongly support rebalances to make it a less important core strategy. There should be more alternative anti-griefing methods and strategies available to use, especially for players who aren't brand new but also aren't super high level.

(Also I think given their difference it's actually silly how weak stone walls seem to be compared to palisades? Like, the drystone wall shouldn't require siege kit, but it should be on a level where it's a genuine inconvenience to hack through except for super well equipped players, such that it's enough to be offputting on sheer "it's boring for me to spend several real minutes hacking through this" grounds for people who are simply trying to grief a newbie).

[Zampfeo]

imagine having such a sensitive ego that you're afraid to admit your failures in a video game to learn from them

I've personally been playing since W2, so it's no consequence to me. I'd just like some accessibility so I can invite friends to the game without needing to babysit them.

[Reiber]

As one of the new players (kinda - I played for a bit in 2013 or something but I've been relearning the game in the last few weeks):

I half agree with this - definitely a claims quest seems very sensible - though I think my one counterpoint should be that "literally everyone has to build a big square palisade because it's the only dominant strategy" is kind of fundamentally boring and I'd strongly support rebalances to make it a less important core strategy. There should be more alternative anti-griefing methods and strategies available to use, especially for players who aren't brand new but also aren't super high level.

(Also I think given their difference it's actually silly how weak stone walls seem to be compared to palisades? Like, the drystone wall shouldn't require siege kit, but it should be on a level where it's a genuine inconvenience to hack through except for super well equipped players, such that it's enough to be offputting on sheer "it's boring for me to spend several real minutes hacking through this" grounds for people who are simply trying to grief a newbie).

there is an alternative to palisading your shit, its called rushing rage and guarding everything 24/7 , if both of these options arent good for you there is also stealth, hide in an random burrow far inland, or go too the backend of an cave, walling off, guarding and hiding your stuff are all, tryed and true tactics of keeping your stuff, irl and in the game,

and your pali dosnt need to be an square, depending on your size an cross can be cheaper to vclam, and expand, people even made circles, but its an lot of work and serves no tactical purpose. the moment we are allowed too shoot over palis, there will be shit like guardtowers, subfortresses, layered walls and jadajada. but this isnt stronghold, this is haven, and they should fix there rudimentary siege systems before they allow us to be funky .

[Jubal_Barca]

As one of the new players (kinda - I played for a bit in 2013 or something but I've been relearning the game in the last few weeks):

I half agree with this - definitely a claims quest seems very sensible - though I think my one counterpoint should be that "literally everyone has to build a big square palisade because it's the only dominant strategy" is kind of fundamentally boring and I'd strongly support rebalances to make it a less important core strategy. There should be more alternative anti-griefing methods and strategies available to use, especially for players who aren't brand new but also aren't super high level.

(Also I think given their difference it's actually silly how weak stone walls seem to be compared to palisades? Like, the drystone wall shouldn't require siege kit, but it should be on a level where it's a genuine inconvenience to hack through except for super well equipped players, such that it's enough to be offputting on sheer "it's boring for me to spend several real minutes hacking through this" grounds for people who are simply trying to grief a newbie).

there is an alternative to palisading your shit, its called rushing rage and guarding everything 24/7 , if both of these options arent good for you there is also stealth, hide in an random burrow far inland, or go too the backend of an cave, walling off, guarding and hiding your stuff are all, tryed and true tactics of keeping your stuff, irl and in the game,

and your pali dosnt need to be an square, depending on your size an cross can be cheaper to vclam, and expand, people even made circles, but its an lot of work and serves no tactical purpose. the moment we are allowed too shoot over palis, there will be shit like guardtowers, subfortresses, layered walls and jadajada. but this isnt stronghold, this is haven, and they should fix there rudimentary siege systems before they allow us to be funky .

Sure - I mean, for that matter, the hiding strategy is basically what I've done ingame so far myself and it's been mostly successful bar one robbery - but you can only hide up to a point in a game that requires you to run a farm!

I don't think what I'm really talking about re diversification is a whole range of more advanced siege stuff. I think it'd be interesting to see some more encouragement/simulation of social mechanics in the game, because for low and mid level players things like scents are essentially useless right now, there's no use in me tracking someone down only to be murdered and get all my stuff stolen. So having more ways to get hermits and newer players interested in what high level players are doing and vice versa could create better dynamics that put off raiding by incentivising cooperation to hunt down raiders (the existence of society being the actual IRL dominant anti-raiding strategy!) Having better mobile-base possibilities early in the game might be interesting so more players could go genuinely nomadic. I think also lesser forms of magical retribution could be fun, it's odd that it's like 0 to Nidbane with nothing in between. I think one could do some tweaks to caves for defensibility: intuitively and IRL cave dwellings are really really defensible short of an earthquake, and it's weird that they're really sub-par for defence in this game, having e.g. a mechanism to reinforce cave walls against tunnelling such that you could reinforce some walls and palisade-gate off some tunnels without worrying about people just easily digging round them would be good. And I think traps could be a really enjoyable strategy too if they were an option (would have to be limited to putting them on your own claim or the woods would become murder zones, but in that limited space it'd be interesting to see how people used them).

But yeah - I'm not complaining about what's there, I really enjoy HnH, I just think there could be more variation, and it's kind of dull wandering around the landscape and seeing that every single base is a 1-3 person hermit fort laid out in a square with exactly the same look and system, no clustering, no social space, no areas of extensive farming or landscape interaction outside walls, nothing. Also given the incentives in the game are so weighted towards defence and avoidance and away from trade and interaction for any players who aren't griefers, you kind of lose a lot of the potential interest of this game being an MMO. Like from my POV, players outside 2-3 friends I play this game with are just like another form of very very dangerous wildlife to be avoided, and the incentives for me in playing the game are to explore no more than necessary, talk to players only if I can't run before I'm spotted, and stay well clear of anything that looks like it might class as civilisation. I'm not suggesting the game shouldn't be dangerous, but making the danger feel more worthwhile to engage with and the strategies more open and varied and less isolationist I think could be good for making the different bits of the game and types of play actually feel more cohesive.

[Reiber]

[quote="Jubal_Barca"][quote="Jubal_Barca"](the existence of society being the actual IRL dominant anti-raiding strategy!)

society isnt an anti raiding mechanism at all, its organised semi consentual raiding,
some richer guy came too your farmstead with an load of guys with big sticks, and proposed to your ancestors, instead of pillaging there farm, they just take half of there harvest each year, and in exchange would come if somebody wants to take the other half, wich they sometimes did,

if you are in need of such an deal, im sure you can tribute some bigger village in your area,

the game is in no way isolationist in nature, as an hermit, without precicely knowing what to do , and commiting to the grind, you are less than an npc too people playing in organised groups, you couldnt even produce something they would feel the need to pick up, instead of the blueberrys that would spawn in your base if you wouldnt have built an house there, aside from maybe the lucky pearl, some wax, or an easy pile of dustgems to gambel away at the gemcutters table,
and that is your biggest chance to survive as an hermit, not being worth anybodys time,
hermits arent supposed too seek interaction, thats why they are hermits,

sure i would welcome some more diverse playstiles , baselayouts, viable tents and whatnot. but with 700 players, 100+ of the mprobbably being bots, that stretches the playerbase really thin,

organising yourself is an viable way of surviving as is hiding, raiding isnt something that neccasarrily need s to be decentivised, its part of the game, if somebody wants too be an bandit, or warlord , or tyrant or cringey toxic player or whatnot, they are free to do so , but with invinite progression(wich is nice) come ofcourse an potentially infinite cap between players that know the game , cheese its mechanics expertisely, and optimize the everliving shit out of the game,

i would love ways of balancing that would allow an lonely player too partivipate in pvp, or even just defend there base or themself in any meaningfull ways,
but then people pitting 100times the effort intoo the game would feel shit about that time and effort when some overbalanced sprucecap land an lucky hit at them and offs em, even if they have 5 contingency characters in the backline,

currently the problem with pvp is, that pvp players can lose little in actual fights, even if they arent hitting down on spruces, kills are rare,inheritance is cheap, and feeding up an new char might get even easier trough the hunger resett, not to speak being able too just support multiple characters through organisation, size or botting of your village,

while an lone player can easily be sliced in 2 by an b12, and every hermit takes their most valuable possession(there char) outside their base everytime the forage for chantrells.

so dedicated players are few and bored, and non fighters cant and shouldnt fight anything that cant be cleaned for intestines.

[WowGain]

(the existence of society being the actual IRL dominant anti-raiding strategy!)

society isnt an anti raiding mechanism at all, its organised semi consentual raiding,
some richer guy came too your farmstead with an load of guys with big sticks, and proposed to your ancestors, instead of pillaging there farm, they just take half of there harvest each year, and in exchange would come if somebody wants to take the other half, wich they sometimes did,

if you are in need of such an deal, im sure you can tribute some bigger village in your area,

the game is in no way isolationist in nature, as an hermit, without precicely knowing what to do , and commiting to the grind, you are less than an npc too people playing in organised groups, you couldnt even produce something they would feel the need to pick up, instead of the blueberrys that would spawn in your base if you wouldnt have built an house there, aside from maybe the lucky pearl, some wax, or an easy pile of dustgems to gambel away at the gemcutters table,
and that is your biggest chance to survive as an hermit, not being worth anybodys time,
hermits arent supposed too seek interaction, thats why they are hermits,

sure i would welcome some more diverse playstiles , baselayouts, viable tents and whatnot. but with 700 players, 100+ of the mprobbably being bots, that stretches the playerbase really thin,

organising yourself is an viable way of surviving as is hiding, raiding isnt something that neccasarrily need s to be decentivised, its part of the game, if somebody wants too be an bandit, or warlord , or tyrant or cringey toxic player or whatnot, they are free to do so , but with invinite progression(wich is nice) come ofcourse an potentially infinite cap between players that know the game , cheese its mechanics expertisely, and optimize the everliving shit out of the game,

i would love ways of balancing that would allow an lonely player too partivipate in pvp, or even just defend there base or themself in any meaningfull ways,
but then people pitting 100times the effort intoo the game would feel shit about that time and effort when some overbalanced sprucecap land an lucky hit at them and offs em, even if they have 5 contingency characters in the backline,

currently the problem with pvp is, that pvp players can lose little in actual fights, even if they arent hitting down on spruces, kills are rare,inheritance is cheap, and feeding up an new char might get even easier trough the hunger resett, not to speak being able too just support multiple characters through organisation, size or botting of your village,

while an lone player can easily be sliced in 2 by an b12, and every hermit takes their most valuable possession(there char) outside their base everytime the forage for chantrells.

so dedicated players are few and bored, and non fighters cant and shouldnt fight anything that cant be cleaned for intestines.

i love reading absolute nonsense effortposts from people who can barely speak the language that they type the effortpost in, easily 10x funnier than if it was written with proper grammar