Remove quest ql increase

[SnuggleSnail]

Namely because questing made animals way above the quality of tools, to the point that those animals never got harvested at their quality at all.

This is a stupid line of reasoning. You can raise the quality of cutting tools by questing, dipshit. As if the bones, hides, curios, and meat from animals are the only things you can raise with questing that matters when it touches practically every item in the game.

I don't even particularly care about the questing thing, even though it's obviously bad, but this is such a fucking useful idiot/shill take. "Bro it doesn't matter that your house is on fire. Most of your expensive stuff is made from metal which isn't flammable."

@Jorbtar the easiest solution is probably to just make it global if you're unwilling to yeet the entire system or go to the effort of individually setting (and knowing) reasonable caps for each thing

[Dawidio123]

You really need to know what qualities are around before you can start throwing out suggestions on this one. The balance matters. Namely because questing made animals way above the quality of tools, to the point that those animals never got harvested at their quality at all. And even with autismo faction it didn't break the game. This had one of the larger deepworld populations for a haven world.

I mean i would have guessed that the animals will probably outscale the tools by a ton (since they killed spiraling...), my point isn't that people got 1000ql bones, my point is that they got bones equal to their tool ql en masse, basically trivializing hql bones. (Also other stuff can be pushed to super hql due to questing, ie. strings)

This might not be a huge issue right now since they got it so late, but, i'd argue that them being able to harvest seals at the same ql as top ql trolls is at least problematic. It took them a long time for sure, but was it done 100% efficiently? What if a faction takes their time to bot/grind the shit out of it and gets it in a month or two and then they can just harvest those animals all world long as their industry progresses instead of doing anything else, will it then be a problem? I guess you could argue that looking for hql trolls is a grind same as questing is and it's just an another path to the same goal (as long as you can't get better tool than best ql trolls), but I digress.

Also i think it might be a tad problematic if devs decide to fuck around with the spiraling system without thinking much of the consequences (like they sometimes do), what if the tools go a tad bit higher ql and you can actually harvest the animals at higher ql than anything else, the best bones in the world shouldn't be dependent on a system such as questing (a bad system, full of rng and grind). A system that can break the game at a "slight" (arguable) balance change is a balance issue imo, even if it works for now (If it's not broken yet but it's likely to break at any change and there are changes to come, then remove it before it breaks).

And that's just the one part of it, the other part is that the ql rewards feel like a punch to the throat every time you get them (if you aren't grinding for it). Thus my compromise proposal having them be additional rewards rather than the main ones.

Edit: Snail's suggestion about questing affecting the global pool might be broken af (all animals and forageables 1000ql+ lol, maybe make those rewards more rare in that case) but at least it doesn't break the ql progression balance between questing groups and non questing groups. (Just for the sake of the argument, you could grind your ass off all day long first week, get ridiculous ql strings and then make a bow out of them that would one shot everyone considering hp changes)

[yym331]

This seems to be an issue tied to the player base, and it might remain a contentious topic with no clear resolution. It might be surprising, but there are players who find enjoyment in raising their stats. Furthermore, it appears that the game developers aim for a persistent world, so having a robust natural progression system with wildlife quality constantly improving due to diligent conservation efforts isn't necessarily a bad thing.

However, it's agreed that the randomness in games can be frustrating.

[Vesena]

I think a catchup mechanic like WWWs have could work. So maybe when you complete a quest, you might see "Questgiver has made the surrounding Blueberries some of the finest in all the lands", which sets them to 90% of the highest Q in the world. Or to make it a bit more involved, "Questgiver has told you to see out Questgiver2, well-versed in Blueberries." and you are given a new quest to go and greet Questgiver2 located near high quality blueberries in order to get that same reward.

[Sevenless]

Namely because questing made animals way above the quality of tools, to the point that those animals never got harvested at their quality at all.

This is a stupid line of reasoning. You can raise the quality of cutting tools by questing, dipshit. As if the bones, hides, curios, and meat from animals are the only things you can raise with questing that matters when it touches practically every item in the game

[/quote]

Why didn't they then? They put an insane amount of effort in clearly, and I'm assuming they weren't stupid about their choices. Also still doesn't kill the world, becomes prime long after the competitive factions of the game quit. Like I get that it has potential for abuse if people actually played haven competitive for 1+ years. But we're not at that point in haven (I don't think it's possible that we ever will be tbh), and there's stuff that's more important to the game than this if we're talking about rationing our devs time.

This is mainly spitballing, but how many different angles does this cause problems from.

I'm 99% sure clay can't be raised, which would be OP as fuck if possible and I would immediately petition to have it removed if it was.
You've mentioned truffles, a good point for mid-lategame stat increase.
Lets look at their seal value of 1k and say "they gained a maximum 800Q" and apply this to industry. What can we work with?
String would be at most 50+800, while I'm sure-ish that the highest natural string would be hide around the 500-600 mark from trolls or whales (I don't know what final cutting tool was, but I think it was around there based on what trollex posted). Strings trickle through in quality through ropewalk(1/3rd)>rope(cumulative 83% of the rope's quality after ropewalk influence)>potter's wheel(17% cumulative)>treeplanter pot (4% cumulative) > tree (0.32%)
Mulched forageables are worth 8% of the final tree, but is softcapped by your bin. I'm gonna assume we just take away half the gain and say "every extra 100pts of mulch input q => 8/2q increase in mulch).
Getting string/mulch inputs to 850q compared to 600q "normal" stuff will net you an extra 10q from mulch (250*0.04) and an extra 0.8q from string. Realistically though mulch is even stronger because while it's theoretically possible to get 600q in this scenario, it's unlikely you'll be mulching any volume of stuff past Q400 (even 400 stretching imo). Which ups our impact to 18Q for mulch, but I think I'm being pretty generous on the theory that our mulch bin is 400-600q.

Feeding a maximum of 18Q better trees back into industry does not really make an insane spiral. So many unraisable things cap it.

Can you think of examples I'm missing?

[VDZ]

I'm 99% sure clay can't be raised, which would be OP as fuck if possible and I would immediately petition to have it removed if it was.

Indirectly it can. Higher animal q (no cap) -> higher bone q (hardcap which can be raised via chain) -> higher bone ash q (softcap) -> higher bone clay q. It's just a very slow process, but theoretically clay quality would grow to infinity as animal quality grows to infinity.

[SnuggleSnail]

Can you think of examples I'm missing?

yes)))

[Dawidio123]

I'm 99% sure clay can't be raised, which would be OP as fuck if possible and I would immediately petition to have it removed if it was.

Indirectly it can. Higher animal q (no cap) -> higher bone q (hardcap which can be raised via chain) -> higher bone ash q (softcap) -> higher bone clay q. It's just a very slow process, but theoretically clay quality would grow to infinity as animal quality grows to infinity.

Like the chain would be something like:
1.Get topql bones en masse and make a kiln out of them (I ignore the rest of ingredients, just assume they are topql too for the sake of the argument).
2.Make treeplanter pots from that clay in the kiln, and use a potter's wheel made with ropes made from those 1000ql foragables and the bone clay.
3.Use the mulch mentioned by sevenless, water that you can improve with xp (which is abundant in a big realm but req scale so much that it won't be raised infinitely even if possible in theory) and the best seed you got on a herbalist that scales with your wood and farm.
4.You can probably repeat the previous step with the new seed a couple of times until the gains stop being significant.
5.Use the new trees to make a better tool, better potter's wheel, better compost bins and better kiln fuel.
6.Repeat the whole process

The only thing that really holds back the quality gains here would be stone for the tools and potter's wheel, so you could probably make a lot of gains as long as you tried to squeeze out every bit of ql you can, but i would guess that the ql plateaus at some point due to diminishing returns.
I'm too lazy to actually check it with real numbers tho so might be full of shit on this one and it could just keep on raising, so if someone is willing to do some highschool level maths then go ahead.

[VDZ]

The only thing that really holds back the quality gains here would be stone for the tools and potter's wheel, so you could probably make a lot of gains as long as you tried to squeeze out every bit of ql you can, but i would guess that the ql plateaus at some point due to diminishing returns.

I don't know how feasible it is in practice, but theoretically (relevant if we're talking about automating most/all of the process) at some point the Ceramic Knife overtakes stone tools in quality, and it has a much shorter production cycle with no time gating.

[Dawidio123]

The only thing that really holds back the quality gains here would be stone for the tools and potter's wheel, so you could probably make a lot of gains as long as you tried to squeeze out every bit of ql you can, but i would guess that the ql plateaus at some point due to diminishing returns.

I don't know how feasible it is in practice, but theoretically (relevant if we're talking about automating most/all of the process) at some point the Ceramic Knife overtakes stone tools in quality, and it has a much shorter production cycle with no time gating.

Oh yeah, i didn't think of that at all (old habits). You might be right about it then although you'd still need to raise the wood ql to get better fuel for your kiln.