Rawhide is OP

[Reiber]

I'm not sure how to balance it for pvp, but just not touching it again because before it was bad for it sounds like lazy design.

If the issue is speed, the fix is easy: do like with boats. Horses don't get faster, they just recover faster (maybe?) or gain more health or something.

As for Rawhide range, if it's not max render distance, it's very close to it. Too close. There's no good reason for it to have such a large range, other than making it close to impossible for people to escape, thanks to scripts completely removing reaction time and constant attention requirements.

As someone mentioned above, how about making it that you can't attack players while on a horse? wouldn't that fix the issue of people with stronger horses being too op?

It would be nice for once to see pvp players work together with hermits to come to a mutual beneficial solution, rather than just shutting down any idea that makes it any harder to bully new players into quitting.

the thing is, if we make rawhide range smaller, lets say 3 tiles above bow range, it could still be used to kite people running up to you, as you move more than 3 tiles during the flight of an arrow, and we seriusly dont want horse archery meta, this isnt stronghold crusader
even if we discard ranged combat compleatly , at half render distance range, you could just theter horses on your escape route, run up to them and are basically out of combat, like an mobile safe palisade
or scout bots that you cant catch, shake off or deter from you,

ever walked intoo an whaling scout? they would constantly ping people of your location, and since all boats had the same speed, and they kept their distance to you perfectly, your only chance to loose them was porting home, or driving intoo deep water untill your boat nearly broke. before the fighters arrived


the thing isnt devs being lazy , but devs being only 2 people, with all the things they want to add, and things that need to be changed they probbably dont have the time to finetune an system that threatens to depopulate the hearthlands within weeks if not days if left unchecked.

[Sevenless]

I'm not sure how to balance it for pvp, but just not touching it again because before it was bad for it sounds like lazy design.

If the issue is speed, the fix is easy: do like with boats. Horses don't get faster, they just recover faster (maybe?) or gain more health or something.

As for Rawhide range, if it's not max render distance, it's very close to it. Too close. There's no good reason for it to have such a large range, other than making it close to impossible for people to escape, thanks to scripts completely removing reaction time and constant attention requirements.

As someone mentioned above, how about making it that you can't attack players while on a horse? wouldn't that fix the issue of people with stronger horses being too op?

It would be nice for once to see pvp players work together with hermits to come to a mutual beneficial solution, rather than just shutting down any idea that makes it any harder to bully new players into quitting.

You realize the problem is the base speed of horses compared to running players, and that horses don't actually gain speed with stats already? I'm sorry but you're talking about an extremely pvp central mechanics without understanding what those mechanics actually are, it's hard to have a meaningful conversation about it.

Horses existing in the first place is already a pvp compromise, even with rawhide as strong as it is.

[Aerysette]

The current fix essentially equates to "you'd be stupid to use a horse for anything" and... I'm sorry if the devs didn't have time or whatever else but this is just not satisfactory to anyone.

I'm at a loss I guess, as to how or why the devs would even care if PVP players had to ride horses for land combat. There's so many bullshit ways that you can be killed, honestly, that if a player on a hyper-bred horse ran me down I'd be relieved. The amount of alt abuse, scripting, and RMT'd script advantages given to competitive players is insane. It's considered just as stupid to use vanilla client as it is to ride a horse around. Horses were completely intended to do what they did and only needed the boat treatment to equalize the playing field. They are a luxury that take a lot of commitment to raise well. Why bother with all of that now? Why even leave horses in the game? We're at the complete opposite side where it's mandatory not to be on a horse at all if a player blips on your minimap. It's no better than how it was before in terms of gameplay feel.

[strpk0]

horses are, and will stay, as one of those features the devs added on a whim one day, without considering the larger impact of it on the gameplay, which they were afterwards forced to nerf into the ground when people who actually play the game on a daily basis realized how much it sucks to deal with complained about it

don't imply you wouldn't care if someone sweatier/with better bots than you had the ability to run you down and murder you consistently with horses, because you absolutely would be the first person posting here asking for horses to be nerfed in some way (case in point, horses got nerfed for a reason)

you may have developed some form of attachment to horses, and thats fine, you can just learn to get off the horse and start running in the opposite direction when someone scary shows up on your screen. 9 times out of 10 if you don't suck at running away you and your horse will be fine.
horses remain a nice utility for moving around faster without draining your stamina/water/energy too much in the process, you just can't turn your brain off and press the "go fast" button whenever something scary happens, again, due to the pvp balancing implications of this.

[Kamekono]

the thing is, if we make rawhide range smaller, lets say 3 tiles above bow range, it could still be used to kite people running up to you, as you move more than 3 tiles during the flight of an arrow, and we seriusly dont want horse archery meta, this isnt stronghold crusader

Make ranged attacks not work for PvP.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't ranged PvP already an extremely rare occurrence? So I don't see the issue in removing it completely.

you could just theter horses on your escape route, run up to them and are basically out of combat, like an mobile safe palisade

What's your point?
Sounds like a strategy that would take a lot of work and preparation, just like airlocks, safe house or coordinating with other players is.
Tethered horses in the wild are be vulnerable to being killed or stolen, so not an easy thing to pull off.
Also you can already do the same with boats, can't you? Just leave boats on your escape route, run up to them and are basically out of combat because u can row away while your enemy is stuck swimming

Seems a very niche scenario to me, especially compared to how often newbies and hermits get caught on horseback (or avoid using one at all to be safer).

Are you saying that people shouldn't have a fair chance to run away?
Because right now they don't, since we all know a hermit stands no chance against a pvp player, with their optimised gear, custom client features, scripts and such.

To me horses should be the way to have a chance to outrun your enemy. But the way it works right now, they much aren't.

dont have the time to finetune an system that threatens to depopulate the hearthlands within weeks if not days if left unchecked.

Lowering Rawhide range wouldn't depopulate the game, let's not be so dramatic.
I won't get into the whole "what depopulates haven" topic, it's too long. I'd just like to add that I've seen lots of players quit the game after getting ko/robbed or killed, knowing perfectly well it was done just to grief them rather than gain something.

Let's stick to the topic at hand. Rawhide is currently extremely powerful, makes using horses to travel counterproductive (counterintuitively), and is disproportionally damaging to hermits. How would you suggest fixing that?

You realize the problem is the base speed of horses compared to running players, and that horses don't actually gain speed with stats already? I'm sorry but you're talking about an extremely pvp central mechanics without understanding what those mechanics actually are, it's hard to have a meaningful conversation about it.

Horses existing in the first place is already a pvp compromise, even with rawhide as strong as it is.

I'm building on what others people here said.

I agree it's hard to have a meaningful conversation, but not for the reason you mentioned. As long as pvp players try to downplay the issue, or immediately get defensive when ANYTHING that might impact pvp on any level is suggested, we'll get nowhere.

So let's start over.
The original Issue: hermits have close to no way to run away from fighters if attacked.
Gear, credos, and more importantly clients/scripts make it extremely easy for fighters to catch up to any hermit.

Logical deduction: faster means of transportation should be the safest way to move around, allowing you to outrun any attacker on foot.

Issue: Horses can be stopped with extreme ease, very close to render distance, and almost for free. Plus custom clients allow for automatic trigger of Rawhide, which even cuts down reaction times for the attackers.

Solution: Nerf Rawhide, with shorter range and higher costs.

New Issue: PvP implications of shorter range Rawhide.

If you're willing to have a meaningful conversation, let's start here. You pvp-litterate players should help brainstorm a way to solve the new issue, or other ways to solve the original one, rather than just shutting down the whole thing without suggesting anything new.

We have different perspectives. I bring you a problem that involves a big chunk of the player base. Now help me come up with a solution that works for both pvp and non pvp players.

[abt79]

really horses should just be dismountable when stunned, every other complaint is pure skill issue cope

if rawhide was in some way nonviable roving hostile players would just outrun you on horses of their own (higher q means they can run at highest speeds for longer)

Getting caught when fleeing on foot is not as “inevitable” or “one-sided” as you think. You have first access to the little wind move speed thingies, and neither bunny slippers nor forager credo (the only other buffs to move speed) are that hard to get tho I agree those buffs are stupid. Just bring maybe a single extra waterskin when going outside, know where to escape to (cliffs < cave < boat < the palisade airlock you should’ve built by now), and try to avoid using horses in dangerous areas.

Tho default client should also have terrain flattening and obj hiding xd, devs hate you for using their client. Install enders or ard bootleg or yoink pasta if you prefer surviving over larp aesthetic in ugly ps1 polygon game

[Aerysette]

New Issue: PvP implications of shorter range Rawhide.

If you're willing to have a meaningful conversation, let's start here. You pvp-litterate players should help brainstorm a way to solve the new issue, or other ways to solve the original one, rather than just shutting down the whole thing without suggesting anything new.

We have different perspectives. I bring you a problem that involves a big chunk of the player base. Now help me come up with a solution that works for both pvp and non pvp players.

The only problematic thing I can think of is mounted archery. If the new range can coincide with this, a shorter range would hurt literally nobody without changing the way PVP is preferentially conducted by PVP enjoyers. Every player would still respect the range and be unable to run anyone down 100% mounted. They could close the gap a bit but still need to dismount eventually or deal with raw hide. I don't want to sacrifice one playstyle for the other. I just want to enjoy the game.

[strpk0]

lmao

[Burzan]

The only real issue here is the existence of automated scripts, if those didn't exist, that would at least allow for players to have the ability to react to seeing someone and dismount, but unfortunately there's no interest from the devs to counter cheating or botting, no matter how detrimental to the game they are.

[Massa]

this thread is why spruce caps deserve it