Cleaning up permadeath: Edgecases that feel wrong

[SnuggleSnail]

How do you do this without making 100 newbies die per 1 fighter?

I think they should decide if they want to be stardew valley online or a high risk PVP game and stick to it. I'm not rly happy with how low risk everything feels, and I can't imagine facebook moms would be happy with any interaction they have with me regardless of how much jorbtar softens the blow.

I think most people who'd quit over a death would also quit over some bad wounds and losing their gear. Heck, if they're anything like me a death might be better. If I login and see some egregiously bad wounds I usually just never login that character again and use somebody else's for the rest of the world. Adding chores to getting fucked up feels like being kicked when you're down. They should probably be trying to get you right back into fun activities ASAP after KO/death if they want to retain people.

"No death" pvp has definitely gotten a few more players into haven pvp in recent worlds, but established pvpers seem to feel that's a bad thing somehow?

The first time you track somebody across the world and KO them it's always exciting. The 100th time you start doing the mental math of how long it's gonna take them to replace their gear and very suddenly realize the guy who got KOed wasted A LOT more of your time than you did of his.

No death would probably be fine for a lot of people, but I think the top couple % of people really need there to be some risk for anything to feel worth it. Always death is probably unhealthy too, but for me at least there needs to be some death to justify to herculean effort of downing anybody even vaguely competent.

[wolf1000wolf]

Its a very surreal feeling to read through recent forum replies and realize snail's posts are actually among the most reasonable and articulate ones...

[Halbertz]

Its a very surreal feeling to read through recent forum replies and realize snail's posts are actually among the most reasonable and articulate ones...

Always have been. Not always hundred percent honest, but in comparison to 98 out of 100 other posters xhe is beyond reasonable.

On topic: good rules are simple. All the edgecases should be trashed long time ago.

[Sevenless]

How do you do this without making 100 newbies die per 1 fighter?

I think they should decide if they want to be stardew valley online or a high risk PVP game and stick to it. I'm not rly happy with how low risk everything feels, and I can't imagine facebook moms would be happy with any interaction they have with me regardless of how much jorbtar softens the blow.

The only note I have on that: PvPers in a way act as a game mechanic for PvEers. It's a very intelligent hostile force that gives the world a sense of danger, and a reason to meet other players to play with for protection. The counterpoint being that PvEers are a form of prey for the PvP types to enjoy attacking, which I'll agree isn't exactly a fun thing to be.

I think most people who'd quit over a death would also quit over some bad wounds and losing their gear. Heck, if they're anything like me a death might be better. If I login and see some egregiously bad wounds I usually just never login that character again and use somebody else's for the rest of the world. Adding chores to getting fucked up feels like being kicked when you're down. They should probably be trying to get you right back into fun activities ASAP after KO/death if they want to retain people.

For the pve types waiting out wounds (assuming all permadeath is removed, so they're allowed to go outside/etc) is much preferable to losing a character. Getting gear stolen definitely pisses them off though because many of them aren't capable of easily replacing said gear due to having to buy the nice stuff.


But overall I agree. Weird edgecase inbetween land is bad, and really high end pvpers prefer permadeath. Whether or not we should cater to that permadeath preference in a small % of playerbase is a longer discussion. I think everyone agrees we've been headed away from permadeath for many worlds now. And if we're gonna try no permadeath world, just rip the band aid off and try it rather than removing one edge case per IRL year.

[MightySheep]

I like the fact that animals can sometimes perma kill and some other scenarios, like deep water or the occasional rly bad cave in etc. The hardcore sense of danger is a big part of haven identity. Howver probably most perma deaths are really dumb. Its shit like you accidentally eat a bunch of peppered food and dont realize it killed you till its too late. 1 of the full kills I got his world was luring an animal into a village to kill a afk guy in the center. Id say probably 80% of them are retarded. Probably the most common one is KOing someone in a dugout or rowboat from ur snekkja then bashing their boat and blocking them from swimming to shore. Thats just silly.

[SnuggleSnail]

Ye, throughout my entire hafen career every death off the top of my head:

1) W10 starved to death on crafter because I didn't notice I was hungry
2) W10 starved to death on crafter because I didn't notice I was hungry again
3) W11 day 1 I picked too many nettles too quickly and died
4) W11 client crash in PVP
5) W11 somebody I was sharing my crafter with drowned it accidentally
6) W11 the same somebody I was sharing my crafter with drowned it accidentally again
7) W13 jorb dev console KOed me while I was in mrage and then other people finished me off
8) W14? a bug that bypassed KO protection
9) W15 day 1 client's sound was broken so I didn't notice somebody luring a bear on me while I was afk /w wireless headphones
10) W15 client crashed in PVP

I think it's pretty telling that I absolutely 100% put myself in more retarded risky situations than any other haven player by far and I've never died to legit PVP excluding that one time somebody lured a bear on me day 1 while i was afk. When I list it all out like that I feel retarded for still playing this game. Every death on a character I've cared about has just been client crash/devs being assolhes/a bug. Mentally well PVP orientated people would never play this game.

[DDDsDD999]

Remove death because it makes people feel bad when they die

[Sevenless]

When I list it all out like that I feel retarded for still playing this game. Every death on a character I've cared about has just been client crash/devs being assolhes/a bug. Mentally well PVP orientated people would never play this game.

I feel this quote in my soul

Its shit like you accidentally eat a bunch of peppered food and dont realize it killed you till its too late.

Couple worlds ago I was begged by my miners to grow peppers for them. I was very explicit, if I do this shit someone's going to die or cripple their character.

Miner number one nods his head, and then goes to eat 40 spiced meatpies. He took something like 400/500 hhp damage, freaked out and quit the world. He throws the rest of the peppered food on the floor first though.
Hunter walks by "wow this food has great stats, why is it on the ground?" puts the other 20 peppered pies on the table.
Miner number two is feeling peckish, eats the food without realizing it's peppered, takes 500/600 hhp damage, quits the world.

And that is how I got a triple kill with pepper, because both of them quitting killed the village for the world too. I am no longer allowed to grow pepper.

(reminds me that bum burn should be a 1pt wound that stops you from eating peppered food until it heals, rather than a death sentence)

[Japiciule]

Bum burn should prevent from using chairs and riding horses for some time.

[Rebs]

I might be the only masochist here who believes that dying should be a core part of the game? Normalise it. The wildness is should feel deadly, PvE and PvP alike.

Permadeath potentially allowed people to catch up to other groups, potentially being the key word there. But setting ambushing, luring overconfident pvpers into traps to kill them etc. used to be a thing to level the playing field against your opponents.

Now fights kinda mean nothing, maybe you take their gear? Can be replaced? Sure fighters will have to heal up and be out of action maybe but it never leaves the winning group at an advantage It should.

And yes, if two groups butt heads in a open field that were equally equipped and had equal numbers, if one side lost by losing 2-3 characters it should be a massive hit to their 'war' efforts and considerations, or as mentioned in a 10v10 'war' one group managed to ambush 1 or fighters and kill them, it should 100% make a difference.

Right now, I don't even see the point in PvP unless one is literally camping their base seiging it.

I also think sucking up to new players by making death more unlikely actually makes death more painful when it does happen. Flip it, normalise it. Let people die. It's a soft reset for many, it's a hard reset for some and those who love the game death won't stop them from picking their feet up again.

Coping to those players who come here not looking for a harsh survival game is likely in the wrong place imo.