Some thoughts on Siege

[Kaios]

dwindling numbers is because this game sucks and it is overpriced, dont confuse the issues here

if you want to talk about noobs and hermits then they are already vulnerable to palibashers and mass murderers either way, this topic isnt really changing that

What? You didn't like my suggestion? Requiring the use of an object to initiate the siege offers them an alternative route from going with this stupid one hit or one repair every few hours implementation. If mechanics are changed so that the attacking party requires a claim to do any damage at all on any of the objects (walls, containers, etc.) I believe this would create a nice back and forth between defenders and attackers, as in, attackers attempting to claim as much of the territory as possible before being able to attempt your break-in at all and defenders attempting to thwart this process through various means.

Regarding ranged siege machines such as catapults, maybe let's just focus on getting the ram reasonably implemented first before we start delving in to the subject of war machines that can break walls from a distance.

[_Gunnar]

One question is whether the game should be for adults with other responsibilities or just for damaged children. I think the idea of having so many time gates to sieges doesn't necessarily solve any problems, and would be pretty horrific for a small group.

Like everyone said, the reason this is such a difficult issue is that losing an industrial production village can be like losing several man-years of work.

Our fundamental goal with Haven & Hearth is to create a game in which player choices have permanent and/or lasting effects

clearly applies to pvp as well, so there is a real contradiction between the goal of the devs and what most of us would consider fun in this case, since for their goal to be realised villages have to be able to be razed. "The urge to destroy is also a creative urge"

Obviously this can be balanced around to make it more or less difficult to completely destroy a village, but if the attackers are stronger than you (including defenders advantage), they presumably will always be able to keep going.

One thing I dont think the devs think about is how much work goes into top industry, searching for really good iron nodes, double or even triple spiral, grinding up trees and crops over many months... To be honest, this is something that I don't find fun, so that colours what I'm about to say. I think that the reason rebuilding is so hard is that building that industry is so hard in the first place. Perhaps the natural cap on resources should be set much lower so that quality plays less of a role, or maybe the cost of all industry structures should be lowered drastically so that its easy to rebuild your large number of ovens and smelters after an attack, assuming the enemy hasn't captured your nodes.

However it has to be said, when has a real plot based city ever actually been raided (without a bugram)? The new siege system could make it prohibitively difficult to raid such a city, while making it much more possible to raid vaults or small parts of a city, so its hard to know much without testing things.

[jordancoles]

Uploading a video atm where we level a base we broke into
We used a horse for the majority of the damage.

It is incredibly easy to remove months of work, without even getting redhanded
I'll post a thread once this vid processes ... Unsure if it should go in the moot or here though because it's technically a raid

[LadyV]

Uploading a video atm where we level a base we broke into
We used a horse for the majority of the damage.

It is incredibly easy to remove months of work, without even getting redhanded
I'll post a thread once this vid processes ... Unsure if it should go in the moot or here though because it's technically a raid

Place in Moot, link it here.

[venatorvenator]

All things being equal, defenders always have the upper hand in combat. Sieges only had to be sustained until the attacker ran out of funds or political support, or until they were routed by a third party. This is somewhat the case now, and I think that's right. Attempting to put attackers and defenders on equal standing and calling it freedom is fundamentally wrong in my opinion.
If perpetrator vaults are the problem, there are other ways to fix it. Red handed debuff could last longer, or it could prevent the character from entering any sort of gate for its duration, or murder could cost XP.

A solution I see for the complete destruction issue is the implementation of a quality-based siege. Maneuvers performed by the attackers, such as poisoning water sources and catapulting diseased cows or flaming barrels, would decrease the quality of farms and industry structures by a small amount e.g. -2 for crops, animals, and fixed tools respectively.
These would cost special items on site to perform, for example, a poison recipe, a live cow, and a barrel of tar. It would be a complement to my other suggestion (viewtopic.php?f=48&t=45816&start=50#p595669), and it would create a non-linear way of ending a siege and conquering a village. Not to say that we would have a way to just damage enemies economically, sparing their characters.

This is also what usually happened in history. Stuff is hard to build irl too, and as a competent besieger you want to have the the city as intact as possible, and with as many people in it as possible to work for you when the war is over.

[jordancoles]

Base destruction post
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=45829#p595894

[Kaios]

In this game, claims are king. I just don't understand why you wouldn't build on that concept more in relation to siege. Kingdoms looked like a good first step and who ever mentioned siege should be done in conjunction with kingdoms has the right idea.

[InfernoI]

How about siegers / criminals can only damage a structure, be it house, wall, kiln etc, 25% per approximately 2 hours, meaning it takes at least 8 hours to gain entry into a wall. That gives people on the inside a lot of time to either vault everything they can, or call in defenders. I think it would be unfair to have the defenders be able to just walk out and bash the rams, catapults, or ladder towers in one go, but I also dislike the idea of trying to re-arrange your own pclaim, and having to wait 8 hours per structure to "move some furniture" around lol.

[Redlaw]

The parts of a siege I would love to see in this game are the terror, tossing dead bodies or even cows over the walls, making people sick/killing crops for the foil smells ect... Just shear terror as a type of siege warfare.

[Patchouli_Knowledge]

The parts of a siege I would love to see in this game are the terror, tossing dead bodies or even cows over the walls, making people sick/killing crops for the foil smells ect... Just shear terror as a type of siege warfare.

Sheer terror is actually facing enemies in combat that has breached through. Personally I think it would be better as a debuff when corpses are thrown at the defenders so it is more of tactic rather than just for pure griefing. However, defenders do need to have advantage in siege to make this worthy implementing.