Thoughts on Sovereignty: Map homogeneity, realms, and trade

[Redlaw]

So a kingdom could make a giant wheel (with spokes) and the areas that would not be part of the realm would be annexed in? Sounds fun to me.

[Kaios]

On the topic of realms, I've considered trying to make it such that, if a realm "encloses" an otherwise realm-empty area with cairns, the interior of that area is also automatically claimed by the realm.

Would be interesting for sure but I think it would be especially nice for those annoying, little rectangles that end up remaining uncovered because the cairn placement was effected by uneven terrain or something like that.

[maze]

@loftar
what if we use a cheat idea for world generating?

the world is in the sky on floating islands cut out some areas to be no land. basically void zones.
whenever you wish to add areas you can have "island collisions" adding new lands to the map.
and say you wish to destroy an area, you can drop that land into the void.

Wish such an idea you can make "hot zones" that can come into being and then start falling off again.


Also for cliffs why not just add a function in that does not allow to jump up cliffs?
and Biomes that have dense hardwood trees/forest that take 5x the amount of time to cut down.

[NotJimmy97]

Also, for the record, I do to no small degree agree with the point about the map being homogeneous, however I look at it a bit differently. What I mind, primarily, is that exploration is not a challenge. The only thing standing in your way is the odd tree, which you can simply walk around. I would love to be able to introduce some kind of structures that actually make it legitimately challenging to get between "areas" of the map, like mountain ranges or deep forests or stormy seas or whatever. The main problem is just how to actually make it difficult, in a fun way, to pass through such structures.

Ultimately, my ideal for the map is that it be boundless, basically. I've said it previously on quite a few occasions, but I've always wanted to make it such that new map is automatically generated whenever players close in on the edge, making the map literally boundless. Of course, I realize why we haven't made it thus yet, since that just makes people spread out and no meaningful interaction ensues, but I'd like to fix that problem rather than sidestep it, in the end. I imagine the "fix" would consist in incentives for player to flock together rather than disperse, be it in the form of boons from cooperation or from wanting to avoid the very harsh wilderness, or anything else.

Why not just make basic survival scale in difficulty with the distance you travel from the center of the map? Trees get tougher to chop, animals get more aggressive and stronger (and more valuable), and other interesting challenges arise for players in the far reaches of the hinterlands? It could scale linearly such that players can progressively explore the farther recesses of the world, but at a certain point the challenges of living would be greater than any experienced player could deal with. I'm probably just rambling here, but that sounds like a system that would be a lot more organic than the invisible wall that currently encloses the world map.

You make a good point about the problems with 'island maps' and the concept of an arbitrarily limited amount of space to explore, but continents and islands would absolutely be an interesting component to add just because of the concrete sense of authority granted by being a realm 'owning' an island, a peninsula, or even an entire continent. I think it would be interesting to see worlds where the world map actually has regions named by players, in the same way that we have 'Europe' and 'Southeast Asia' in real life.

I don't mean to be shitting on the worldgen system (I do like how the world looks, even if I think it's homogeneous), but I feel like adding continents and islands is inevitable if realm territory ownership is ever going to have a sort of meaningful purpose in each world's story. Right now people can compete over who has the largest territory earning the most XP, but that's a lot different than saying, "we control the center-most continent in the map." Although I've suggested adding a larger form of land ownership, I think you could even get away with not adding any sovereignty system. Just a change in scenery will totally have cool effects in the ways that players interact and realms expand.

[Jacobian123]

Another thing which vaguely relates to the topic of this thread, by the way:

On the topic of realms, I've considered trying to make it such that, if a realm "encloses" an otherwise realm-empty area with cairns, the interior of that area is also automatically claimed by the realm. If any part of the enclosing claim is breached, or a new realm if founded in the interior, such a projected claim is again broken, but can be reformed by closing the area again. There are some non-trivial technical obstacles in the way of such an implementation, of course, but I figure it might be fun, and would allow for claiming of vastly larger areas, with some perhaps interesting "instability".

This would be great.

[Potjeh]

All I want in map is proper rivers

[Jacobian123]

All I want in map is proper rivers

ye, better generation without complete randomness would be nice

[Popo13]

Ultimately, my ideal for the map is that it be boundless, basically. I've said it previously on quite a few occasions, but I've always wanted to make it such that new map is automatically generated whenever players close in on the edge, making the map literally boundless. Of course, I realize why we haven't made it thus yet, since that just makes people spread out and no meaningful interaction ensues, but I'd like to fix that problem rather than sidestep it, in the end. I imagine the "fix" would consist in incentives for player to flock together rather than disperse, be it in the form of boons from cooperation or from wanting to avoid the very harsh wilderness, or anything else.

Out of curiosity, what was the perceived flaw with the Darkness concept at the origin of Salem? I imagined a world where the deeper you explored into new lands, the harder it would be, to the point of preventing expansion until the world has progressed to a point where player stats and quality levels allowed effective establishment of "dark" lands. Churches and light sources would combat some of the effects (i.e. Bile drain), but other challenges such as harder (higher quality) animals/monsters would be there and supply a purpose for players to explore.

The original description of the Darkness is in fact what drew me into Salem in the first place after having set aside H&H for a year or two. I would love to hear what happened to change it.

[Potjeh]

IMO it's main failure was that it was more desirable than light because it had all the fancy resources. And secondary failure is that it was barely affected by players, if at all. IMO civilization rating in H&H should be mainly based on population density, and high civilization should overall be better than low. Wilderness can have it's perks, sure, but they must be weaker than civilization perks.