Archery: Why is it useless?

[julian12it]

archery in PvE is pretty nice (u could deal 3000 dmg in few shots)
archery in PvP sucks because :
1. tryHard to get PERC = AGI , and keep distance for max dmg
2. no wounds from shooting
3. no penetration (mostly bow dmg <= armor , so always deal 10-20 dmg per shot)
4. with no tank u able to make only 1-2 shots and run (very hard keep distance for shot)
5. big chance of friendly fire
6. mostly clients are shows bow's affected area
7. raw hide! = OP (no rider archers)
8. to start deal dmg like in PvE u have to destoy ~20-40k Armor

This is what will happen if you add armor pen again to spears or arrows

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_-kspc ... e=youtu.be

[ctopolon4]

This is what will happen if you add armor pen again to spears or arrows

its old video with old dmg formula & 90% penetration
its already here if u have PERC / AGI = 2 and qArrow / qArmor = 2
atm bows deal 0.01% HHP dmg to strong fighters and 100% HHP dmg to weak one

[synaris]

as the others have stated. it couldnt be more obvious that you and loftar HATE archers. even if you fall for that "arrows can't pierce metal armor" bullshit, you still made them suck in PVE by softcapping animals.

i also think custom clients have a script that automatically moves characters out of the way of any archers line of fire. i have seen a guy consistently dodge my arrows even when i aimed AHEAD rather than where he was, he never stepped where i was aiming, he changed direction with inhuman timing. so.... nothing you can do will make archer viable for PVP except, the thing that bothers me the absolute most.

fuck the armor penetration, fuck the damage, fuck the softcaps, fuck the quality, my biggest issue with archery IS THE COMPLETE LACK OF RANGE.

our characters shoot arrows like, 20 feet ahead before they instantly stop. my 50 pound recurve in real life laughs at that. and the kind of 150 pound warbows that we should be using (give us back the damn rangers bow) would laugh at my recurve.

also, the aim speed is far too damn low to fight opponents on screen in PVP.

while on the subject of ranged battle, slings need some love. when will be able to make whistling stones/any other sling ammo?

[jordancoles]

as the others have stated. it couldnt be more obvious that you and loftar HATE archers. even if you fall for that "arrows can't pierce metal armor" bullshit, you still made them suck in PVE by softcapping animals.

i also think custom clients have a script that automatically moves characters out of the way of any archers line of fire. i have seen a guy consistently dodge my arrows even when i aimed AHEAD rather than where he was, he never stepped where i was aiming, he changed direction with inhuman timing. so.... nothing you can do will make archer viable for PVP except, the thing that bothers me the absolute most.

fuck the armor penetration, fuck the damage, fuck the softcaps, fuck the quality, my biggest issue with archery IS THE COMPLETE LACK OF RANGE.

our characters shoot arrows like, 20 feet ahead before they instantly stop. my 50 pound recurve in real life laughs at that. and the kind of 150 pound warbows that we should be using (give us back the damn rangers bow) would laugh at my recurve.

also, the aim speed is far too damn low to fight opponents on screen in PVP.

while on the subject of ranged battle, slings need some love. when will be able to make whistling stones/any other sling ammo?

Read the patch notes

[blank]

We need to be able to move freely for Archy maybe with a slight move debuff when aiming. Right now we are forced to stay in one spot and that's the biggest down fall

[eliminoid]

Arrows should not totally fuck up the quality of animal products. At the beginning of this world I hunted only using unarmed and melee from the boat. My character was totally safe as if I used a bow. Why punish archery so hard when you can easily kill stuff from your boat with bare hands?

And I think that maybe there is a place for an archery mechanic where you always deal increased or direct hp damage to the backs. This will allow using bows to kill off running animals and somewhat stop the pvp running fiesta which I'm not enjoyed at all.

[MagicManICT]

Archery should be figured into the cards along with melee and unarmed combat*. It is absolutely the only way to balance it into PvP. There should be actions to decrease archer vulnerability in both the other styles, but maybe do it rock, paper, scissors like. I have half a thought there, but at this point, it's just that and a quick analysis in my head says it isn't balanced. Might think on it some more over the day.

*On that subject, and probably worthy of a different thread, why is unarmed even a thing in a world of heavy weapons? Brawling should be completely separate and significantly weak vs armed and armored combat.)

[DDDsDD999]

We need to be able to move freely for Archy maybe with a slight move debuff when aiming. Right now we are forced to stay in one spot and that's the biggest down fall

That's not true.

Also I'll say it now, the bow you added is op and you need to nerf it.

[RedSkies]

Archery thoughts

First point: Buff archery damage.

Archery right now does next to no damage in combat. From our tests and our actual experience pulling out a bow in combat, it does almost no damage currently if someone is wearing half decent armour. Maybe you can snipe a naked scouting alt or aggro someone's horse, but the damage to players is non-existent. We have had opponents come out and dance in front of us and dance while we put 10 arrows into them. It probably only lowered their shp by 100 points on a warrior that has 2-3k health.

Second point: Add counterplay

Make shields (or something new) be the counter-play to archers with heavy damage reduction. You could even make it directional and give players a toggle to hold their shields in front of them. Perhaps add a one handed axe for UA users to have a viable weapon to use with a shield, and to add a meaningful choice between the highest damage weapon and a more defensive weapon.

Third point: Rework aiming

Allow archers to shoot instantly, and have Marksman affect the cooldown between shots. In real life archery, unless you have a modern compound bow, holding up the arrow back on a 50-100 pound bow will tire your arm out and make your aim worse. Shooting should be a quick pull and release.
Allow archers to shoot while moving at any speed, but make the width of the aim cone vary in size in proportion with the movement speed. Aka accurate if you are standing still, and a very wide, wild shot if you are sprinting. Add an arrow draw and shoot animation for maybe 0.5-1 seconds where if they increase speeds, their aim will be negatively affected, to prevent the archers from stopping for a split second, and then sprinting again to kite indefinitely.

Fourth point: balance PvE

I realize this is a pvp thread, but Marksman is a very useless skill outside of archery. By making it more useable in PvE, perhaps more people would have points into it and be inclined to use it in pvp. By the time you get high enough quality arrows to use without capping the animals you hunt, you are usually late enough into the game where you are strong enough to fight animals. I would suggest either drastically reducing the projectile softcap, or removing it altogether.

Fifth point: Archery in Seiges

Right now there is nothing to prevent people from just standing outside your walls. As someone has mentioned before me, having some sort of elevated platform what would allow defenders to shoot over the wall (and attackers to shoot back at them) would be very welcome. Ideally, it should only allow archers to shoot over objects in a radius around them, allowing others to build cover outside said radius.

[LostJustice]

Archery thoughts

First point: Buff archery damage.

Archery right now does next to no damage in combat. From our tests and our actual experience pulling out a bow in combat, it does almost no damage currently if someone is wearing half decent armour. Maybe you can snipe a naked scouting alt or aggro someone's horse, but the damage to players is non-existent. We have had opponents come out and dance in front of us and dance while we put 10 arrows into them. It probably only lowered their shp by 100 points on a warrior that has 2-3k health.

Second point: Add counterplay

Make shields (or something new) be the counter-play to archers with heavy damage reduction. You could even make it directional and give players a toggle to hold their shields in front of them. Perhaps add a one handed axe for UA users to have a viable weapon to use with a shield, and to add a meaningful choice between the highest damage weapon and a more defensive weapon.

Third point: Rework aiming

Allow archers to shoot instantly, and have Marksman affect the cooldown between shots. In real life archery, unless you have a modern compound bow, holding up the arrow back on a 50-100 pound bow will tire your arm out and make your aim worse. Shooting should be a quick pull and release.
Allow archers to shoot while moving at any speed, but make the width of the aim cone vary in size in proportion with the movement speed. Aka accurate if you are standing still, and a very wide, wild shot if you are sprinting. Add an arrow draw and shoot animation for maybe 0.5-1 seconds where if they increase speeds, their aim will be negatively affected, to prevent the archers from stopping for a split second, and then sprinting again to kite indefinitely.

Fourth point: balance PvE

I realize this is a pvp thread, but Marksman is a very useless skill outside of archery. By making it more useable in PvE, perhaps more people would have points into it and be inclined to use it in pvp. By the time you get high enough quality arrows to use without capping the animals you hunt, you are usually late enough into the game where you are strong enough to fight animals. I would suggest either drastically reducing the projectile softcap, or removing it altogether.

Fifth point: Archery in Seiges

Right now there is nothing to prevent people from just standing outside your walls. As someone has mentioned before me, having some sort of elevated platform what would allow defenders to shoot over the wall (and attackers to shoot back at them) would be very welcome. Ideally, it should only allow archers to shoot over objects in a radius around them, allowing others to build cover outside said radius.

Agree a lot with second point here and last point but last point depends more on the siege rework I guess. Biggest issue is in combat that there is a meta. If a weapon gets buffed and is at any point stronger than another then people will always result into using the best option. Issue is, with current set up, you buff archery back to even semi glory days and then it becomes the new meta. But if options like the second option were available like shield up blocks % of armor pen or something that allows more of a combat triangle then there is no best option. Aka, b12 counters swords with brute strength, swords and shield counters archers with defensive tankyness, and range weapons counter b12 with range and ability to open on an aggressive style. I think biggest problem in general is that combat right now for melee is questionably ok but lacks in range because they are two different systems and the system itself is just buffs and debuffs. Maybe making archery get closer to current system and then making the system interact with itself such as shield up against an archer attack or an archer attack against a b12 matter and have an efffective ness against each other so this way you have an option but there is no best option since you will have a counter of some sort.