Oven Upgrades (+ other?)

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Oven Racks

Postby SaltyCrate » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:15 pm

See, that takes space and bricks I'd rather not use.

Space is the most cheapest resource in the game. Also I assume those racks are not made of pure air and would require some materials to craft anyway. And at this point your idea basically asks for implementing yet another clutter item because you prefer to gather one material rather than the other.
Alternative idea: why not simpy ask to increase oven inventory size if you really can't afford building another oven and is desperate for increase of its productivity? Is it because the game will have one less larpy item as a result this way?
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Re: Oven Racks

Postby DDDsDD999 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:28 pm

SaltyCrate wrote:
See, that takes space and bricks I'd rather not use.

Space is the most cheapest resource in the game. Also I assume those racks are not made of pure air and would require some materials to craft anyway. And at this point your idea basically asks for implementing yet another clutter item because you prefer to gather one material rather than the other.
Alternative idea: why not simpy ask to increase oven inventory size if you really can't afford building another oven and is desperate for increase of its productivity? Is it because the game will have one less larpy item as a result this way?

Pretty much this. I just don't get what it adds to the game. I'd rather just have bigger ovens that require metal or something. Also I suspect the UI with these things would be pretty atrocious.
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Re: Oven Racks

Postby MagicManICT » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:30 pm

SaltyCrate wrote:Alternative idea: why not simpy ask to increase oven inventory size if you really can't afford building another oven and is desperate for increase of its productivity? Is it because the game will have one less larpy item as a result this way?

I'm pretty sure that "bigger capacity" has been suggested before on ovens. I, at least, have mentioned it in discussion, even if there hasn't been a posted thread. I think others have, too.

As far as "larpy," it's an RPG. You can't have RPG without "role play." I really want to say more, but I'm supposed to be the role model here, so I'll just leave it at "I think this is a pretty crappy attitude to have about anything in an RPG."
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Re: Oven Racks

Postby SaltyCrate » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:49 pm

MagicManICT wrote:m pretty sure that "bigger capacity" has been suggested before on ovens. I, at least, have mentioned it in discussion, even if there hasn't been a posted thread. I think others have, too.

I am aware that it was suggested before. My point was that this is mechanically the same suggestion only with more inventory management problems.

MagicManICT wrote:As far as "larpy," it's an RPG. You can't have RPG without "role play." I really want to say more, but I'm supposed to be the role model here, so I'll just leave it at "I think this is a pretty crappy attitude to have about anything in an RPG."

My counterpoint to this is that "G" in the RPG stands for Game and imply actual gameplay being considered. This suggeston as well as about dozen others from different people on couple of last C&I pages either adds almost nothing to the gameplay or acively detract from it. And most of such flavor-type suggestion would be fine except for one point: they cost development time. Sure, there are all kinds of people who enjoy different stuff in this game, but I rather have development time being spent on things which would make the "game" part more interesting.
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Re: Oven Racks

Postby MagicManICT » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:22 pm

SaltyCrate wrote:My counterpoint to this is that "G" in the RPG stands for Game and imply actual gameplay being considered.

I do completely agree with this, and if there's a valid argument for or against something based on this, then that's all that is needed. Anything else starts to turn into what can only appear to be an insult.
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Re: Oven Racks

Postby Lunarius_Haberdash » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:32 pm

DDDsDD999 wrote:Pretty much this. I just don't get what it adds to the game. I'd rather just have bigger ovens that require metal or something. Also I suspect the UI with these things would be pretty atrocious.


Well, we could always blend the two. Make racks, add to existing oven. If oven contains racks, internal capacity is larger. Think of it like adding a backpack to your character. We don't need to add another oven when we can just add a way to upgrade the ones we have.
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Re: Oven Racks

Postby Luanes » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:02 pm

Upgrading buildings sounds really cool.
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Re: Oven Racks

Postby Lunarius_Haberdash » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:49 am

SaltyCrate wrote:Alternative idea: why not simpy ask to increase oven inventory size if you really can't afford building another oven and is desperate for increase of its productivity? Is it because the game will have one less larpy item as a result this way?


You know, I've been thinking about this question and I wanted it to give you an approprate response. Let me break it down.

Space is not. In fact, the cheapest resource in the game, it is indelibly tied to time, which is arguably the most valuable resource in game or out. The time spent moving between multiple ovens, handling the fuel necessary, lighting them, etc are all resources spent when moving between multiple ovens.

Why not ask for them to increase the size of an ovens inventory? Because increased efficacy should come at an increased cost, something that doesn't happen if you just ask them to increase the size of it and they accede.

Why oven racks as an additional item? Yes, the LARP of it pleases me, but that's not the thought pattern. The thought pattern is that it requires a few additional resources to create. As a craftable item oven racks require high q metal and everything associated with it, as well as a character with high smiting to make sure the Q of them doesn't subvert the fuel and brick Q of your oven. All of this is bigger than "LARPing" and creates value and need for supply for these items.

I want it to come at a cost, I want that cost to be more than "buy a bar of metal or smelt one using high q everything". It requires an investment of LP and time by a craftsman to produce an improvement to an existing oven that doesn't add yet another structure to the game but instead builds on an existing one.

So no, your alternative addresses none of these, and misses the spirit of my request.
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Re: Oven Racks

Postby MagicManICT » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:08 am

Well laid out argument... the TL;DR: either a chance to upgrade the oven with "extras" or an upgraded oven that can be built with bigger capacity (maybe a higher fuel cost to run a load of goods, but comes with a bit of efficiency). Either way, add an extra cost for more convenience and overall efficiency.

The latter sounds... meh, but might be worth it over time when you're already upgrading ovens (assuming same footprint... would suck if your oven grid was screwed because the new oven is 3x4 instead of 3x3 unless it was planned for). The former might be problematic with current server code, though it could lead to some other interesting changes.
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Re: Oven Racks

Postby SaltyCrate » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:04 am

Space is not. In fact, the cheapest resource in the game, it is indelibly tied to time, which is arguably the most valuable resource in game or out. The time spent moving between multiple ovens, handling the fuel necessary, lighting them, etc are all resources spent when moving between multiple ovens.

Everything, absolutely everything is tied to the time. And acquiring more building space is time-wise still the cheapest of things to acquire. Also, the time spent you describe is the maintenance cost, not the initial construction cost and your idea as initially proposed had atrocius maintenance cost as well via juggling all the inventories.

Why not ask for them to increase the size of an ovens inventory? Because increased efficacy should come at an increased cost, something that doesn't happen if you just ask them to increase the size of it and they accede.

Strictly speaking, no, it is not necessarily "should". And the opposite sometimes happened already. But I agree that is not bad idea in general. Though, there is already such an increased cost for increased efficacy: building another oven.

The thought pattern is that it requires a few additional resources to create. As a craftable item oven racks require high q metal and everything associated with it, as well as a character with high smiting to make sure the Q of them doesn't subvert the fuel and brick Q of your oven. All of this is bigger than "LARPing" and creates value and need for supply for these items.

Yes it creates value for the materials to build racks and detract value and need for supply from materials to build ovens, as fewer would be built. It is not an argument against your idea, but it can't be used as an argument for it either. There is a difference in that the metal quality will affect cooking products (Btw, will it softcap, hardcap or add to quality? As Initial post lacks proper description, I will assume softcap). It isn't a bad thing. but i fail to see what is particularly good about it.

I want it to come at a cost, I want that cost to be more than "buy a bar of metal or smelt one using high q everything". It requires an investment of LP and time by a craftsman to produce an improvement to an existing oven that doesn't add yet another structure to the game but instead builds on an existing one.

Wait what. None of it can be derived from your original post. As decsribed, I imagined it as just another item that would be sold at CF, similar to other tools, which one would just buy and use. Do you imply that craftsman would be needed to install those or that you somehow necessarily must craft it yourself or what? If so, you failed to communicate those implications in your opening post and I would like to hear more detailed description of what you meant.


Lunarius_Haberdash wrote: Make racks, add to existing oven. If oven contains racks, internal capacity is larger. Think of it like adding a backpack to your character.

Now this implementation I can support. One time upgrade which simply increase inventory size at the cost of potentially capping produced goods. None of inventory juggling and clicking fiesta. Opens potential for other modular structures and ideas fot their upgrades.Too bad that opening post contains none of these details.
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