Fix to Raiding (as well as Brickwalls).

[Mario_Demorez]

How does the claim determine whether it has a palisade shield or brick wall shield?

At the moment something in the game lets a claim know that a complete wall is around the claim. So I’m sure it wouldn’t be to hard for loftar or jorb to make it see if it’s a palisade or brick wall that is creating the enclosed area.

[Mario_Demorez]

Well laid out idea, but I think the main issue people have with raiding is the length of time involved currently. Last major raid I saw was the big NK/HH battle, which, if memory serves, was something like 24 hrs of camping and firing catapults.

I think this change would make raiding more time realistic. Making the time for raids too short bring the whole problem of surprise raids. No one likes to log off and log back on after sleeping for 7 hours to find everything destroyed and looted. But I think making raids take too long will be bad aswell. The regen stopping after 8 hours of taking damage makes it possible for people to take breaks and go to sleep. They will have to rebuild what they are using to raid of course. But it just makes the raid take a longer time total but spread out over several days. Instead of spending 10 hours straight raiding you spend 4 hours a day for 3.5 days raiding. Which is about 14 hours vs 10 (not including the time for drying).

[MagicManICT]

I think this change would make raiding more time realistic. Making the time for raids too short bring the whole problem of surprise raids. No one likes to log off and log back on after sleeping for 7 hours to find everything destroyed and looted.

I can definitely agree. The raiding is what makes Haven interesting, even if I or my village is the target. Too much time and it's just frustrating for the attackers, too little and there is no defense, just senseless robbing and destruction.

I can't agree that this a proper enough time to mount a defense for people with a healthy sense of 'outside the game' activity. (Most here are all a little crazy... at least I'm one of them, but observations and all... ) 12 hours to camp the siege is still too much for the raiders. 3-4 hours should be the time frame of any sort of "group activity," forced or mutually organized. The problem is, I don't think can be done in any practical means short of what you see in other online games like Puzzle Pirates (Saturdays only with international friendly time slots), EVE (attack a base to put it into reinforced mode to start a timer of around 72-96 hours), or other such game. That leaves us with the current or this proposed time frame.

just as a additional thought: any improvement here, including this, is a step forward, and that's what we need right now. So for that, this is a good idea. I just want to make it clear that I don't think this is a final destination.

[CaddoPuma]

... 12 hours to camp the siege is still too much for the raiders. 3-4 hours should be the time frame of any sort of "group activity...

Maybe the fact that I am new to the game makes me naive, but it appears to me your experience in the game has made you jaded and locked into viewing sieging only in terms of how it has always been, rather than in terms of how it could and should be. From my understanding of how sieging has alway worked in this game, it has been necessary for the seigers to remain in place every moment from when construction begins on the first siege engine until a final resolution of the conflict. In real life, sieges lasted months...sometimes even years...not hours. Do you think there was no sleep, no stopping to pee, no standing down to repair the machines and bury the dead? I agree with you that Mario's solution is not the final answer. But I do think it's a better idea than you credit it for being. And yes, I do realize you do credit it as a good idea. I just don't think you give it enough credit. I think it makes a way which returns the fun to sieging specifically because it eliminates the necessity for the siegers to be at the desk with no breaks from start to finish. At the same time, it keeps defense possible, which keeps the fun in fighting off a siege.

[DDDsDD999]

How does the claim determine whether it has a palisade shield or brick wall shield?

At the moment something in the game lets a claim know that a complete wall is around the claim. So I’m sure it wouldn’t be to hard for loftar or jorb to make it see if it’s a palisade or brick wall that is creating the enclosed area.

All someone would have to do is put a 4x4 brickwall around their claimpost and then they can just go back to making their actual wall with a palisade.

[SaltyCrate]

There are some questionable moments for me.
First:

Instead of having a flat amount of shield for every claim make the shield amount based off the type of outer wall.
Palisade- 75000
Brickwall- 150000

At the moment something in the game lets a claim know that a complete wall is around the claim. So I’m sure it wouldn’t be to hard for loftar or jorb to make it see if it’s a palisade or brick wall that is creating the enclosed area.

But there is no such thing in the game as far as I am aware? So how does this work exactly? And apparently claims without closed contour walls are/will become shieldless?
Also this

All someone would have to do is put a 4x4 brickwall around their claimpost and then they can just go back to making their actual wall with a palisade.

Second:

However, make it where after damaging a shield the shield will not regenerate for 1 hour. This does not stack. Can only be reapplied after the first hour is up.

Ok, so if one raids a claim for 8 hours straight, then it will not regenerate for 1 hour after, right? Then what does this mean:

The regen stopping after 8 hours of taking damage makes it possible for people to take breaks and go to sleep.

Is the break/sleep implied to be 1 hour long or? Because I don't see how it is meaningfully different from how it works right now in regards of allowing breaks in siege. Or was it meant to stack after all so that after 8 hours of sieging regeneration will stop for hours as well?

But it just makes the raid take a longer time total but spread out over several days. Instead of spending 10 hours straight raiding you spend 4 hours a day for 3.5 days raiding. Which is about 14 hours vs 10 (not including the time for drying).

This is not a counter argument to this, but you really should include the drying time and then some when you consider such scenarios. Adding minimal 1 hour drying time and about 1 hour of preparation/travel/building to each sieging attempt skewers these numbers to 22 hours vs 12, which is significant difference. And those times are unavoidable as it currently stands, as you have to be present during drying time when sieging anything non-abandoned and alarmed.

Overall, I find the first part of proposed changes to be slightly better but very similar to what we currently have. Which is fine in itself, but I believe devs mentioned the intention to implement something without shields altogether, and so chances are this idea may be found to be not attractive enough to implement.

Now onto the stat buff change.
The first way to cheese this system I found is the ability to symbolically raid oneself for the stat buffs. You can temporarily double the strength of your crafter, or set up small claims on the mountain to cheese mammoths with double stats on your tank character. Granted, these may be not significant enough and there are currently more efficient ways to cheese PVE encounters, but the potential of abuse is there.
Secondly, if comparison considers total sum of certain stat of all characters on the claim then it basically incentivizes defender to spawn inside as much alts as possible without giving them perms, thus skewering numbers to their advantage regardless of actual stats ratio. If comparison would consider average scores of all characters, then similarly you spawn a lot of alts but give them the perms this time. Even without alts, in a scenario where, for example, there are 5 attackers versus equally statted 5 defenders the first defender would do would be to remove perms from 3 people of theirs, granting big stat boost to remaining 2.
And there is vaguely threatening possibility of instantly knowing when someone steps on certain claim, by sieging it yourself and automatizing reading of buff numbers on naked alt with reporting any such occurence to nearby death squad.

[Mario_Demorez]

How does the claim determine whether it has a palisade shield or brick wall shield?

At the moment something in the game lets a claim know that a complete wall is around the claim. So I’m sure it wouldn’t be to hard for loftar or jorb to make it see if it’s a palisade or brick wall that is creating the enclosed area.

All someone would have to do is put a 4x4 brickwall around their claimpost and then they can just go back to making their actual wall with a palisade.

That 4x4 wall would only defend their claim? Nothing outside the brick wall. The moment they finished their palisade around their entire encampment the shield would be based on a palisade. The wall that is the most outer perimeter is what determines the shield. Anything outside of this wall you do not need to siege to steal or break.

[Mario_Demorez]

A shield would stop regeneration 8 hours after it takes damage, activating the “siege”. Like I said, regen is based on the minute and not hourly, so a minute after the 8 hours is up the shield would start regenerating. The moment you damaged the shield again after the 8 hours is up another 8 hour break would start. So technically I’m a small window the shield did regenerate a little.

And I do believe a claim without a wall completely around it has no shield in the context of committing crimes inside the walls.

With the math I mentioned in the idea raiders would be able to start a raid Monday at 4 pm. Raid for 3-4 hours. Leave, come back the next day at whatever time they pleased, let’s say 4 again and repeat. They would be able to break the claim in 4 days. The regeneration is not high enough to stop concesscuitive daily raids. Drying time is not included so it will take longer if you do it by taking breaks, however if you do it in 10 hours without breaks you could easily organize it where you have enough catapults and rams to break the shield without missing damage.

[Mario_Demorez]

To cheese the stat buff by raiding your self-
What would this accomplish? You’d have to have access to someone with higher combat stats than your character you’re trying to buff. And depending on the difference in stats is what determines tha mount of stats the buff would give. If you raid a place with an alt with 10 combat stats and the characters on the claim have 20 stats they would get no buff.

It wouldn’t be an average. It would be a sum. But I don’t know the exact math behind it because it was a quick idea that came. Average obviously wouldn’t work.

And the buff would only apply to people on the claim during an ACTIVE raid. So only when someone has damaged the shield.

[Ardennesss]

With the math I mentioned in the idea raiders would be able to start a raid Monday at 4 pm. Raid for 3-4 hours. Leave, come back the next day at whatever time they pleased, let’s say 4 again and repeat. They would be able to break the claim in 4 days. The regeneration is not high enough to stop concesscuitive daily raids. Drying time is not included so it will take longer if you do it by taking breaks, however if you do it in 10 hours without breaks you could easily organize it where you have enough catapults and rams to break the shield without missing damage.

This will be heavily abused to siege people with obligations outside playing a video game.