Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

[Jackwolf]

4; Re-read the post. He even said that only the person who picked the gate can enter it.

And how would that work? Gates are not like houses, it's not something you interact with to get inside. The interaction is to open it, and while open people and animals can walk past it. Would animals be locked in somehow too, even if the gate was open? What about other people with permits? And what if I close it, can the thief reopen it from inside, or does he have to lockpick it again?

Or it could just be made so that when you successfully lockpick the gate you are transported to the other side, rather than the gate opening...?

5; Make redhanded tracked by the item as well as the person who took it? We already can track items, i doubt this would be hard. Plus it gives that added joke of "this item is /hot/" (aka stolen).

Can you summon a non-thief that has a "hot" item on himself? Because if not, they can just alt-vault the loot too.
Then again, especially with continents, tracking items is less efficient. A good thief could just spread them across multiple alts, and it would be close to impossible for you to track everything.

I don't believe you can, but redhanded keeps the person from hearthing. If not being able to summon them is such a worry then just it so outlaw status transfers with the item as well, so long as the item is held. The stuff you're worried about here is already possible under the current system.

[loskierek]

i would need another area just for all the HF of all the vault alts..... prolly like 50x50 area full of hfs holding anything that holds any value in my camp gg thief

[Mr_Bober]

Or it could just be made so that when you successfully lockpick the gate you are transported to the other side, rather than the gate opening...?

Teleporting inside would make no sense whatsoever. And even if it did, both opening or teleporting would just bring to a new problem. The owner would have to make an easily destructible wall (like a fence), with no gates, to stop thieves from getting in.
Since the thief can't use vandalism, he would be stuck between the palisade and this unbreakable fence, making this whole thing pointless. And the owner would have to constantly brake and rebuild this fence just to get outside his base and still be safe.
That's a lose-lose situation.

The stuff you're worried about here is already possible under the current system.

It's only possible AFTER A SIEGE. That's the whole point. Right now a palisade makes it so that your stuff is safe for long enough for you to login, see what's going on, and react (assuming you login daily).
What he's suggesting would allow people to steal from a palisade-protected claim like they would from a claim with no walls: walk in, steal, walk out. No matter what malus you give to the thief (some of which btw make no sense, like no backpacks? wtf), if he can get in and out a palisade in matter of minutes, you can't defend your stuff.
This kind of burglary would damage immensely small villages and hermits, and barely touch large villages where someone is online at all times.

With palisades not protecting you from theft, you would either have to abuse some other mechanic (like no-gate fences like described above) or use alt-vaulting for everything you own. And that's just bullshit.

[MooCow]

Good effort here, OP. We have discussed burglarly type effects before, and the problem we've seen is that burglars would basically have to be able to pass through not just walls, but really any object, because otherwise it is easy/possible to create a wall (of some type of object) which locks them out of a compound.

I don't know how collisions are done in Haven, but typically they are done is games by mathematically checking to see if the players point in space is too close to collidable geometry. If this is the case, it is possible to reduce the collision radius to zero. Players could simple walk in between the zero width gaps between adjacent geometries. I have seen the request for features like this in the past (climbing over stuff), but I think walking in between objects, at a very slow speed is the best way to implement this feature. If something like this is ever added don't forget to change the walls so you cant walk in between them.

So whats the difference between 20 alt "burglary" covered by warriors and a "siege"?

The main difference would be the amount of work. The 20 thiefs would each need to have enough skills to pick the gate locks, and they kill somebody when their combat is reduced. There might need to be some kind of time limit (48 hours?) that they can chill in your base, but it isn't like they can break anything. Considering they are alts they could only take 80 items. If you are going to put in so much work, why not just siege?

I see a few major issues with a burglary system:

1. Attacker advantage in burglary
2. Burglary allows too much griefing
3. Alt vaulting would become the norm
4. Gate lockpicking would allow anyone to enter
5. You can just get outside the claim

I like the idea of separating theft and siege, but not unless players have a new way to defend themselves from thieves.
I see two things that should be introduced to do so: first, burglar shouldn't be able to fight, even if attacked. That would make burglary a lot more dangerous, even when you're going again a single farmer hermit. Second, we would need an automatic defence, like guard dogs (tamed wolves?). That way even an hermit could have some kind of defence while he's offline. But that would require a lot of tweaking to make it effective at defending while still giving a chance to skilled thieves to do something.

1. Burglary requires that you perform a lot of tasks in order to steal. You need to get enough stealth to pick locks, walk from your hearth to the site, wait at least 1 hour to get in. My hope is that this bar makes stealing more common, without making it oppressive.

2. I kinda agree. Originally I pointed out that stolen items should never disappear, but realize that having enough time people will be huge jerks. I suggest a correction. Thieves take 10% shp damage when stealing instead of just 1

3. Alt vaulting needs to be fixed. For now I think the trouble of logging in and out makes it unlikely that people would vault more than 4-5 alts or 250-300 items. Being able to steal stuff is not actually the main reason for burglary. Stealth killing red handed people is. Burglary is just very thematic, and an often requested feature.

4. Any system that enables players to bypass sieging NEEDS to limit how players enter. As stupid as it might feel to you, turning the gate into a 'picked' state that only allows the lock picker to enter is mandatory. Having sombody being able to pick the picked lock to gain entry afterwards is also required. I personally feel that it is a very common trope in video games for only one person to be able to pass though a locked door, and easily understood.

5. If you leave, you have to re-pick the lock meaning each load will take a minimum of 1 hour, although realistically much longer especially with the new 10% shp damage thing

I really like the idea of guard dogs, any system that allows theft to bypass walls needs to wait until we get them guard doggos

[Mr_Bober]

1. Burglary requires that you perform a lot of tasks in order to steal. You need to get enough stealth to pick locks, walk from your hearth to the site, wait at least 1 hour to get in. My hope is that this bar makes stealing more common, without making it oppressive.

It doesn't seem like a lot to me. Let's even assume you play all day long, and sleep on average 6 hours a day. That still gives a 6 hours window for anyone to steal from you with ease.
Getting stealth is a joke, unless a wooden lock takes 1000 stealth, and the rest up from there. But it would make no sense.
Walking to the site, that's what already everyone does for anything.
Waiting 1 hour to get in? No big deal, you still have at least 5 more hours.

Unfortunately with how kinship works, you could just make an alt, kin your victim (most people accept kinships from anyone), and in a few days study his online-offline pattens. There you go, you'll know exactly when to strike without getting caught.

Without better prerequisite, something hard to raise, people would just spam thief alts. LPs are not really a rare commodity, and can easily be gained on inactive alts through study tables.

2. I kinda agree. Originally I pointed out that stolen items should never disappear, but realize that having enough time people will be huge jerks. I suggest a correction. Thieves take 10% shp damage when stealing instead of just 1

This is something I can agree on. A % damage makes constitution pointless, allowing both noobies and veterans to only steal so much, and do so much damage.

The only issue I can still see, is large factions (or crazy multi boxers) going with several accounts. If 1 thief gets in, he can do 9 "point of damage" (90% shp), but if it's 10 guys, then things get messy.
Sure that means raising 10 accounts, but with stealth being the only prerequisite, it's not that big of a deal, especially for larger groups.

3. Alt vaulting needs to be fixed. For now I think the trouble of logging in and out makes it unlikely that people would vault more than 4-5 alts or 250-300 items. Being able to steal stuff is not actually the main reason for burglary. Stealth killing red handed people is. Burglary is just very thematic, and an often requested feature.

As of today, I don't do alt-vaulting.
If this was introduced right now, I would, and I would hard. I would make a selection of everything I own, trying to reduce its number as much as I can, and then put everything on alts. Whatever I can't keep on an alt, would get dumped. Hell I'd even consider not playing anymore, rather than get my stuff stolen without a fair chance to defend it.

I have no issue with the killing red-handed people, but I don't see it working well. People would just make a small "safe spot" for red-handed characters, making like a 4x4 palisade and building more gates in front of it. With a 1-hour minimum time to lock pick, 10 gates would mean 10 hours at least.
It being only a spot for 1 character to be afk at, you don't need it to be large, so it doesn't really take that much space.

I really like the idea of guard dogs, any system that allows theft to bypass walls needs to wait until we get them guard doggos

Guard dogs would effectively work only if it becomes a mini game. I imagine something like this: the dogs patrol the area at walk speed. The thief has to move at crawl speed not to alert them. If the thief alerts a dog, going too fast or moving too close to it, the dog attacks.
While in combat, the thief shouldn't be able to fight back the dog (or any semi-decent UA/MC build will make dogs useless), but should have a chance to escape if he can rush to the gate before getting killed.
If he manages to escape, he can't attempt to steal from the same claim for 24h or something (preventing thief to just keep trying over and over until they manage to get what they wanted)

[MooCow]

It doesn't seem like a lot to me. Let's even assume you play all day long, and sleep on average 6 hours a day. That still gives a 6 hours window for anyone to steal from you with ease.
Getting stealth is a joke, unless a wooden lock takes 1000 stealth, and the rest up from there. But it would make no sense.
Walking to the site, that's what already everyone does for anything.
Waiting 1 hour to get in? No big deal, you still have at least 5 more hours.

Unfortunately with how kinship works, you could just make an alt, kin your victim (most people accept kinships from anyone), and in a few days study his online-offline pattens. There you go, you'll know exactly when to strike without getting caught.

Without better prerequisite, something hard to raise, people would just spam thief alts. LPs are not really a rare commodity, and can easily be gained on inactive alts through study tables.

The only issue I can still see, is large factions (or crazy multi boxers) going with several accounts. If 1 thief gets in, he can do 9 "point of damage" (90% shp), but if it's 10 guys, then things get messy.
Sure that means raising 10 accounts, but with stealth being the only prerequisite, it's not that big of a deal, especially for larger groups.

I have no issue with the killing red-handed people, but I don't see it working well. People would just make a small "safe spot" for red-handed characters, making like a 4x4 palisade and building more gates in front of it. With a 1-hour minimum time to lock pick, 10 gates would mean 10 hours at least.
It being only a spot for 1 character to be afk at, you don't need it to be large, so it doesn't really take that much space.

Guard dogs would effectively work only if it becomes a mini game. I imagine something like this: the dogs patrol the area at walk speed. The thief has to move at crawl speed not to alert them. If the thief alerts a dog, going too fast or moving too close to it, the dog attacks.
While in combat, the thief shouldn't be able to fight back the dog (or any semi-decent UA/MC build will make dogs useless), but should have a chance to escape if he can rush to the gate before getting killed.
If he manages to escape, he can't attempt to steal from the same claim for 24h or something (preventing thief to just keep trying over and over until they manage to get what they wanted)

When I first played, in world 3, I had no walls, just a fence and it took months before somebody stole from me. When I tracked him down a couple he had already been murdered. People generally don't steal from noobs because they don't have anything worth stealing.

I definitely can't say for sure, but I think making it so you can't steel casually will prevent most theft. I think tracking down criminals is exciting. You are right that they can steal from you easily once, but then you track down the theif, pick their locks and take back what you are owed. Then you buy high q steel locks so it doesn't happen again. If you can't pick their locks, hire a ranger to do it for you.

I mentioned that to prevent multi gates, your should remember the time you spent successfully picking gate locks and reduce further gate locks by that amount while you as still in their property. When you leave that time is reset.

[Mr_Bober]

When I first played, in world 3, I had no walls, just a fence and it took months before somebody stole from me. People generally don't steal from noobs because they don't have anything worth stealing.

World 3 was a loooong time ago, the game has changed a lot since then.
Just in this world I've already heard of so many people getting robbed. Even a noob can get lucky and get his hands on a rock crystal or a Jotun Mussel, or have a few gems he might have traded or found.
In my experience, not being a top player doesn't save you from thieves.

I think tracking down criminals is exciting. You are right that they can steal from you easily once, but then you track down the theif, pick their locks and take back what you are owed. Then you buy high q steel locks so it doesn't happen again. If you can't pick their locks, hire a ranger to do it for you.

Good for you, I don't find it exciting at all. I believe is a good feature, but it doesn't fit my gameplay, and I don't want to be forced to do it or to pay someone to do it for me. As long as I take precautions (claim+palisade), I shouldn't be forced into it.

If you enjoy it and want it to happen more, nobody stops you from leaving your gates wide open.
I've met a few players who even built fake small claims with few items inside, just to get some scent to hunt down criminals. And given what those claims usually have inside, it's mostly newbie criminals they are killing.

Also consider one more thing: if the criminal comes from a large village or faction, I wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Lots of people enjoy playing in small villages or alone, and they tracking something to a large village would probably get them killed rather than get their items back. Stealing something that used to belong to you is still a crime, and you would have to become a thief yourself, with all dangers that come with it.

If high q steel locks would prevent you from ever accessing a gate, then the game would be even more unfair and against hermits / noobs. Large villages would easily have them, or have something valuable to trade it for, while small villages and hermits will not, becoming not only easier targets, but the only targets.

Having no accessible way to protect your belongings would just be bad game design IMHO. I'd rather see claims removed all together, making crime untraceable and accessible to everyone, than see thins mechanic into play.

[MooCow]

World 3 was a loooong time ago, the game has changed a lot since then.
Just in this world I've already heard of so many people getting robbed. Even a noob can get lucky and get his hands on a rock crystal or a Jotun Mussel, or have a few gems he might have traded or found.
In my experience, not being a top player doesn't save you from thieves.

Good for you, I don't find it exciting at all. I believe is a good feature, but it doesn't fit my gameplay, and I don't want to be forced to do it or to pay someone to do it for me. As long as I take precautions (claim+palisade), I shouldn't be forced into it.

If you enjoy it and want it to happen more, nobody stops you from leaving your gates wide open.
I've met a few players who even built fake small claims with few items inside, just to get some scent to hunt down criminals. And given what those claims usually have inside, it's mostly newbie criminals they are killing.

Also consider one more thing: if the criminal comes from a large village or faction, I wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Lots of people enjoy playing in small villages or alone, and they tracking something to a large village would probably get them killed rather than get their items back. Stealing something that used to belong to you is still a crime, and you would have to become a thief yourself, with all dangers that come with it.

If high q steel locks would prevent you from ever accessing a gate, then the game would be even more unfair and against hermits / noobs. Large villages would easily have them, or have something valuable to trade it for, while small villages and hermits will not, becoming not only easier targets, but the only targets.

Having no accessible way to protect your belongings would just be bad game design IMHO. I'd rather see claims removed all together, making crime untraceable and accessible to everyone, than see thins mechanic into play.

Noobs get their stuff stolen by people that see a claim while exploring/questing and have a peak inside. I actually don't like this kind of theft because it is too easy. My intention is to make a system where you would have to make a serous time commitment to actually steal shit. I may have completely missed my mark

If a large village/faction decided they don't like me there isn't anything you or I could do in the current system, or in any other system for that matter. Even in the most fair system possible (no stats at all), large factions will always have a ridiculous advantage over a hermit. If they wanted to ruin your game they would. There can't exist a system that changes this, because they simply have more people than you or I do. Trading is, and always will be, the best way to get large amounts of resources out of a hermit or village. It is just so easy compared to anything else, and it had repeatability.

Obviously you consider 1 hour + lock picking time + walking from heartfire to site + lp investment time to be too low of a barrier. Between that time, and the time and items necessary to raid you, what kind of commitment should be required to just steal from a person? I would like to know what kind of time/lp/resource barrier you would prefer

[Aceb]

it's like with archery. You will either make such thief too OP or too useless.

Stealing from noobs is easy becasue they do not set-up a palisade. During W10, while helping out several new hermits, many of them were angry I didn't support them with items, because they didn't want to upgrade from stickfence to pali, because:

just a fence and it took months before somebody stole from me.

and some blubbering about fence being nicer for eye
Some casuals have this dangerous way of thinking and they can learn only throught pain of being theft. If they leave it to be easy, then why You blame the game for being it so, if it was player choice to be an easy target.
There was a guy who was breaking into bases just because He saw a rowboat and He wanted it.

It's it normal that faction or a really big village will always have power against smaller groups / hermits? If You make it other way around it will be simply unfair and dumb. You won't thief from people like these and giving them more power to raid/ thief You is again, giving unnecessary power to people who already have it but easier?

It's hard to balance this since it's real time based game and if You know when X player(s) is/are going to sleep, They're practically vulnerable to any operation that takes 8 or less hours or if You take into consideration REAL LIFE THAT IS MENTIONED A LOT it's 8 + 8, giving at least 16 hours period for a victim to be screwed up. So, 8 hours is always an absolute minimum.

So if You thinking a puny 1-4 hours is "enough", then You're obviously wrong. Trade would become one big trap to theft from people who are... trading and not part of bigger game.