Crime & Punishment: Holmgang

[bmjclark]

Adding incentives to use crime alts for everything just seems miserable.

[Zentetsuken]

Jorb, I love that you are thinking about adding a layer of complexity to the crime system (unironically) but I think you are misdiagnosing that core problem with PVP.

Faction PVP is largely enjoyed and I doubt that most factions would even use this system or care about it outside of its ability to bait even more PVP and just intentionally misuse it.

If the offenders are stronger to the point where the defenders are butthurt about it, furthering the engagement is just going to be a chore for the defenders and will probably lead to more upset.

Baiting scents out of people would also lead to a lot of shenanigans here.


I think the problem is moreso finding a game balance between people who want PVP and people who do not? It's not faction vs. faction, it's faction vs. sprucecaps.


Is there a way for a province to count how many deaths of PVP KO's happen within itself? Can the aura of a province change due to the alignment of the people within it?
If so, maybe using Thingwalls as an area to build totems is a cool idea, but instead of with scents, just allow them to be built based on the aura?


What if actions within a province could push the province's alignment toward one side of the old dualism sliders?

And then, in order to reap the benefits of the buffs or debuffs associated with one side of the dualism, you'd have to build said totems near the thingwall, which would only be buildable based on the aura and alignment of the province.


Example:

A province with high PVP has pushed the aura towards the Death alignment. A thingwall totem can now be constructed to increase grievous damage in the province, at the cost of minus learning ability modifier (maybe this is something good for PVPers and something they would want to make themselves?)

Similarly, a bad aura (death alignment) province, could have totems built at the thingwall that also debuff industry (this is obviously something PVPers would not want, but something they are at risk of having built by anybody by making their province negatively aligned.)


Maybe it doesn't even have to be at a thingwall? Maybe the objects aren't even hard to smash, but are more spammable and become a game of maintenance rather than a game of 'defend the object' ??


I'm sure there are big holes in this too, just spitballing here.

[pheonix]

Oh god you trying out trial by combat again????
It failed in salem and they told how shit an idea it was because it was just as bad as the trial by fire mechanic for besieging which was bad. Not in right time zone boom dead, leave scent coz you defended yourself in a fight and dead when asleep. I could go on but snail and others explain better, basically bad idea didnt work there and wont work here.

[overtyped]

u realize that this would make every complaint by hermits 1000000x worse right? LOL

No. No I don't.

me: Block gates with alts so they can't leave. Do you dare to kill those alts?
You: kills alts
me: challenge incoming, kekw

Unironically I do like this though. It would at least lead to more pvp. It would also make good streaming content, but too bad Bob Dole doesn't stream.

[Keiriku]

Loosing randomly less equipment/curios on ko sounds better than this tbh. Maybe also less hhp damage if there is significant combat stats difference (I.e. attack that did damage weight vs defense weight).

[Avu]

You won't be able to make pvp fair while alts, bots and many vs 1/few fights exist.

To the idea itself my suggestions how to improve it.

-first of all make the whole thing a true 1 vs 1 ranger vs criminal
-make the penalty be agreed upon by the parties either fight to the death or if one or both disagrees less drastic but very significant criminal gets cursed by the gods and loses the ability to do the crime he is being punished for and the ranger loses the ability to invoke the Holmgang, in either situation the defeated party's equipment becomes the property of the winner (the penalties last for a month)
-For 24 h both the instigator of revenge and criminal get to choose back and forth time intervals for the 24-48 h interval that are banned; each get a 6 hour interval to ban and then they each get 3 hours bans and lastly 1 hour (non overlapping) for the remaining 4 hours the game decides randomly the time of the event.
-if one of the two doesn't show up at the decided time he loses by default
-one hour prior and after the event all non Holmgang PVP is disabled in the thingwall province
-ranger and criminal can freely teleport to thingwalll as well as anyone they are partied with
-an arena around the thingwall is created and all spectators are pushed outside its boundaries
-the two fight to death or not
-bodies of the dead can be retrieved by their friends but the equipment is forfeit to the winner
-ranger winner gets an easily visible aura/mark of bringer of vengeance (not justice) which gets more impressive the more success one has
-criminal loser if not dead gets a mark of loser (find better wording)
-if criminal wins the challenges against him he gets a mark of Unrepentant so civilized folk know to stay away, the more they win the more impressive the mark
-everyone except the dead combatants can freely leave

What will this achieve? pvp-ers having incentives to go after other pvp-ers. An easy enough way to get rid of griefer alts by real characters. Fame glory and most important recognition for the pvp-ers that crave it. Maybe justice from time to time.

Edit: Make extra special title(s) for fighting to the death (and winning).

[_Scipio]

Problem: Since W3 and the removal of brick bashers there hasn't been real consequences to crime. Criminals roam free. You hate to see it.

Player 'consequences' should be meted out by the players, not this holmgang totem challenge idea. You say that there "hasn't been real consequences to crime", however I'm sure the dead outlaws I've tracked, ko'd, and killed would say differently. Though I didn't do so in the name of justice, it is still karmic justice. I feel like the direction you could want to go is improving scent tracking and making scrying better/easier.


The latest world, patch, and hat have all been bangers; I'm surprised that this was suggested.

[dafels]

Why not buff tracking instead? I've punished alot of people just by tracking scents, I don't think you need to add more complicated mechanics to punish the criminal, also this idea has already been tried out in your other game...

[Gauhörnchen]

There should always be, and there inherently is, a power difference. You’re not eliminating the power imbalance by providing a new tool to everyone, because those who already maximize the use of all available tools will continue to do so more effectively and more frequently than those who are primarily victims of crime. This mechanism does not solve the problem; it would only exacerbate it. I am 100% confident that if Snail and others are already highlighting the potential abuses of this system, they will take advantage of them—because why wouldn’t they, if given the opportunity?

I think it might be better to make Scrying Balls cheaper or replace them with hearth magic that lasts for a week in real-life time. Alternatively, some form of temporary debuff could be implemented within this mechanic. For instance, crafting an item and placing it on an altar that reduces Agility by 50% (with the exact amount open to discussion). This debuff should be annoying enough to deter people from raiding those who do not wish to engage in PvP, but not so severe that it kills PvP entirely or unduly punishes hermits who choose to fight back.

Players who invest more time or play more strategically should have better stats, win more PvP encounters, and be able to get away with certain crimes. Historically, older societies often maintained order through self-organization and self-help (in the legal sense). Hermits can organize if they are serious about seeking justice. If, even after organizing, you cannot defend yourself, there are still ways to frustrate raiders, such as planting claims around their bases or employing other tactics that PvP mechanisms usually help counter, but not always can be avoided, especially if someone is determined enough to target you. People should just be more creative when it comes to venting their rage against Raiders.

[talon00302]

• Seems like you just take it up the ass if your group is in a bad time zone
• Having to guard an objective in fights is pretty universally disliked, it just doesn't rly work with the """flow""" of hafen combat
• Not being in the strongest group/alliance just sorta means you die with no recourse? And being in the strongest group/alliance means it doesn't affect you
• It will be cheesed by building elaborate bullshit nearby thingwalls
• It's pretty easy to bait murder scents
• Shidders should probably be encouraged to PVP more, not feel like they're just going to die because they can't beat a srs fraction group

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