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[TheServant]

The Haven forums do not enforce Liberalism, and, if they have an ultimate ethical standard, it consists more so of the eternal teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, than of the shifting sands of contemporary American public discourse and polite sensibility, which I loathe, especially whenever I am lectured on them by corporations or blue-haired college students.

I do not long for, nor dream of, a borderless world in which the distinctions between men, women, and peoples are wiped away (Genesis 11:1-9), and yet this is the future toward which the world rapidly hurls, as was foretold.

I always come back to forum to search this quote, but this time i saved it on my computer. Thank you for you words.

[vatas]

In modern era, only Native Americans and other "indigenous" groups have the privilege of Blood and Soil.

At least, the modern "progressives" tend to act like this is the case.

[sMartins]

Thank you for the quote, I had never read it, very wise.

Perhaps I am sinning in pride and certainly not for the first time, however, if I understand anything, it is the Christian religion that has brought us to this point.

Mind you, by this I am in no way denying its greatness, as they say, is an innocent fault, one of many.

I am not a believer.

Simply, what I want to say, in simple terms so as to extremely simplify a subject that would be very complex otherwise.

Life is a continuous becoming and we can never relax and rely on established and, by now, outdated ways of thinking, it is up to us, day by day to create the reality of tomorrow, all of us, together.

[TheServant]

Life is a continuous becoming and we can never relax and rely on established and, by now, outdated ways of thinking, it is up to us, day by day to create the reality of tomorrow, all of us, together.

Can you elaborate further about outdated ways of thinking?

[sMartins]

Thank you for your question.

You see, life on this planet is constantly changing.

We are born, we grow up and we are brought up with old values, why?
Because there is nothing better, in the sense that it is the best we have been able to do so far.
But it's not over there, we have not arrived and never will be.

Does that mean that all past knowledge is to be rejected?
Absolutely not, they must be learnt and internalised, only then will one be able to go further.
Would you be able to solve a differential equation without knowing how to do a sum or division?

Plato's ideas are also past, and carry with them an innocent guilt, so classicism etc .... can be seen well with the parallel of science, did we stop at Descartes? at Newton? No, we keep moving forward, here, we must also do the same with our thinking.

At the moment I am writing this, life is already not the same as it was yesterday, but we remain anchored to past ways of seeing, which reassure us, change is scary, life changes so fast, while our mind is much slower to change.

And it is useless to fight, life continuously overwhelms us, the more we fight against change the more we hurt ourselves.

There is no certainty, let's stop it, we know it now, let's try to carry the great teachings of the past into the future for the benefit of the new generations, to lose them would be a disaster, because it would set us back, but once we have learnt these we have to put our own spin on them in order to be able to interpret the reality we live today in the best possible way, which is different from yesterday, ten years ago or two thousand years ago.

In fact, I could go even deeper, it doesn't even exist yesterday, except in our memory, and not even tomorrow, except as something closely related to what we do today, now, in ten seconds it is already not now.


This below should explain it in more detail.


From XENOPHANES to THE DEATH OF THE GODS

[TheServant]

Thank you for your question.

You see, life on this planet is constantly changing.

We are born, we grow up and we are brought up with old values, why?
Because there is nothing better, in the sense that it is the best we have been able to do so far.
But it's not over there, we have not arrived and never will be.

Does that mean that all past knowledge is to be rejected?
Absolutely not, they must be learnt and internalised, only then will one be able to go further.
Would you be able to solve a differential equation without knowing how to do a sum or division?

Plato's ideas are also past, and carry with them an innocent guilt, so classicism etc .... can be seen well with the parallel of science, did we stop at Descartes? at Newton? No, we keep moving forward, here, we must also do the same with our thinking.

At the moment I am writing this, life is already not the same as it was yesterday, but we remain anchored to past ways of seeing, which reassure us, change is scary, life changes so fast, while our mind is much slower to change.

And it is useless to fight, life continuously overwhelms us, the more we fight against change the more we hurt ourselves.

There is no certainty, let's stop it, we know it now, let's try to carry the great teachings of the past into the future for the benefit of the new generations, to lose them would be a disaster, because it would set us back, but once we have learnt these we have to put our own spin on them in order to be able to interpret the reality we live today in the best possible way, which is different from yesterday, ten years ago or two thousand years ago.

This below should explain it in more detail.


From XENOPHANES to THE DEATH OF THE GODS

Although mankind has evolved so much to the point of being able to create spaceships, a man remains the same. The readings OF B.C and early A.D very much applies to us today. A man remains a man. I have yet to read the hyperlinked stuff but i want to state that. We haven't evolved as humans. The only reason we gathered so much knowledge and kept it to today is because of the few that didn't let the fire go away. When you state that:

You see, life on this planet is constantly changing.

We are born, we grow up and we are brought up with old values, why?
Because there is nothing better, in the sense that it is the best we have been able to do so far.
But it's not over there, we have not arrived and never will be.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, 'Look! This is something new'? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time."


You see, we have access to an infinitude of knowledge, and yet, I would say that most humans still are children. And I remind you, we can create spaceships. The quote below, I want to use it to address a broader spectrum and not strictly to Christ but wisdom as a whole (of course, by Christianity, all wisdom is God-given) today.

1 Corinthians 3:1-2 (New Testament, Apostle Paul writing):
"Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready."

[sMartins]

I understand very well what you're saying, and I care about you for it. I also agree, but only partially.

You see, my friend, mankind has a very ancient history, much older than we could have imagined, and science is greatly aiding us in this, about two hundred thousand years, for what we know today.
These are facts, not thought systems created by us.

Only God knows how many millions of years it took for our hand to evolve into what it is now, from bacteria, fish, mammals, and finally primates.

The upright structure allowed us to free our hands and better scan the horizon for the presence of a predator.

Today, to some extent, we can assert that our current physicality and cognitive abilities were already present around 200 thousand years ago.
Once again, I would like to emphasize that these are facts.

Christianity and all the great teachings of the past, besides being very recent, have certainly influenced us, at least in our thoughts and minds. And foremost among them is, of course, the most significant tool of all – language. It has undoubtedly changed the way we think, but not only that, our minds have an immense power even over our bodies.

I'll give you an example: at the dawn of humankind, when there was no law other than the law of nature, death and, most likely, homicide were extremely common for various reasons.
Indeed, for instance, territorial disputes, control over food resources, access to mates, and even power struggles were likely among the reasons for such occurrences during that time.

With the formation of rituals and religions first, and later philosophies, morals, and ethics, we have attempted to guide our future for the benefit of all and for the betterment of our future.

Today, it will not surprise anyone if I say that witnessing a murder is a profoundly shocking experience for our minds and bodies. I believe that nobody would object if I say that someone might even faint or vomit, in other words, feel physically ill. Our body's reaction to such situations reflects an evolution that is not related to physicality but exclusively to culture.
Indeed, what was once a common experience, certainly shocking even then, was likely not as overwhelming as it can be in today's context. The evolution of culture and our values over time has made us more sensitive and empathetic to violence and its consequences, leading to stronger emotional reactions to such events compared to the past.

What I mean is this: it's always the same thing, words are just words, language is just a tool, and it can't guide us; only our heart can guide us.

Did we think as we do today before the Greeks or before Christianity? To name just two of our greatest roots, along with Jewish culture.

These cultures have achieved great things and have brought us to where we are today, and a similarly radical change as the one that occurred with Christianity is happening again in modern times. It requires us to rise to the occasion and be equal to the challenges it presents.

You are right that man has not progressed much, he has certainly developed, but he has not succeeded at all in reducing violence and horror; on the contrary, if possible, he has increased it proportionately as his tools have become more powerful.

And that is precisely the point, it is time to change, not because it is morally or ethically right, even certainly, but because in fact our behaviour on earth is no longer sustainable or compatible with life.

These are facts.

[sMartins]

This I add is nothing more than a provocation for good, to better explain my point of view.

We still didn't fully understand Copernicus, five hundred years ago, let alone modern science telling us that we are nothing more than a tiny grain of sand revolving around a flaming pebble in the endless ocean of billions of galaxies.

We are still here killing each other, prevailing over each other, in the light of our current knowledge does that seem like the best thing to do?

[TheServant]

I understand very well what you're saying, and I care about you for it. I also agree, but only partially.

You see, my friend, mankind has a very ancient history, much older than we could have imagined, and science is greatly aiding us in this, about two hundred thousand years, for what we know today.
These are facts, not thought systems created by us.

Only God knows how many millions of years it took for our hand to evolve into what it is now, from bacteria, fish, mammals, and finally primates.

The upright structure allowed us to free our hands and better scan the horizon for the presence of a predator.

Today, to some extent, we can assert that our current physicality and cognitive abilities were already present around 200 thousand years ago.
Once again, I would like to emphasize that these are facts.

Christianity and all the great teachings of the past, besides being very recent, have certainly influenced us, at least in our thoughts and minds. And foremost among them is, of course, the most significant tool of all – language. It has undoubtedly changed the way we think, but not only that, our minds have an immense power even over our bodies.

I'll give you an example: at the dawn of humankind, when there was no law other than the law of nature, death and, most likely, homicide were extremely common for various reasons.
Indeed, for instance, territorial disputes, control over food resources, access to mates, and even power struggles were likely among the reasons for such occurrences during that time.

With the formation of rituals and religions first, and later philosophies, morals, and ethics, we have attempted to guide our future for the benefit of all and for the betterment of our future.

Today, it will not surprise anyone if I say that witnessing a murder is a profoundly shocking experience for our minds and bodies. I believe that nobody would object if I say that someone might even faint or vomit, in other words, feel physically ill. Our body's reaction to such situations reflects an evolution that is not related to physicality but exclusively to culture.
Indeed, what was once a common experience, certainly shocking even then, was likely not as overwhelming as it can be in today's context. The evolution of culture and our values over time has made us more sensitive and empathetic to violence and its consequences, leading to stronger emotional reactions to such events compared to the past.

What I mean is this: it's always the same thing, words are just words, language is just a tool, and it can't guide us; only our heart can guide us.

Did we think as we do today before the Greeks or before Christianity? To name just two of our greatest roots, along with Jewish culture.

These cultures have achieved great things and have brought us to where we are today, and a similarly radical change as the one that occurred with Christianity is happening again in modern times. It requires us to rise to the occasion and be equal to the challenges it presents.

You are right that man has not progressed much, he has certainly developed, but he has not succeeded at all in reducing violence and horror; on the contrary, if possible, he has increased it proportionately as his tools have become more powerful.

And that is precisely the point, it is time to change, not because it is morally or ethically right, even certainly, but because in fact our behaviour on earth is no longer sustainable or compatible with life.

These are facts.

Man, thank you for words of wisdom, i felt inspired by them. I'll read the hyperlinked texts later on, and maybe try to converge into something myself.

Currently I am "finishing" reading Dion Chrysostom discourses. Do you have any suggestions? I'm familiar with Seneca and Marcus Aurelius.

[sMartins]

No, sorry, I don't have any suggestions.

The only one maybe is to listen, both to yourself and to the world, if it helped you take what I wrote but be ready to throw it away as soon as you have found something better, there is no end to it, we all have to work at it, togethere.


I wish you a good day.