Alternatives to pay to win

[Kaios]

Personally I don't believe sub token trading is at all PAY 2 WIN - Those items already exist in the world, it's simply transfer of ownership. Makes no difference to me if person A has it or if person B does.

It used to be that pearls were the most used form of currency and everyone would equate their trades to pearls when trading with other things. Sub tokens have not improved trading at all and I'd argue have only made it much worse. There are some traders that will ONLY accept sub tokens for their more valuable goods and it's just as annoying to be offered them when you're looking for in-game stuff instead.

If anything is pay to win in this game it's definitely those and I'd love to see sub tokens removed entirely. They are total shit and fuck the devs for ever implementing them and fuck them harder for reading the complaints about them and doing nothing.

[Amanda44]

Personally I don't believe sub token trading is at all PAY 2 WIN - Those items already exist in the world, it's simply transfer of ownership. Makes no difference to me if person A has it or if person B does.

It used to be that pearls were the most used form of currency and everyone would equate their trades to pearls when trading with other things. Sub tokens have not improved trading at all and I'd argue have only made it much worse. There are some traders that will ONLY accept sub tokens for their more valuable goods and it's just as annoying to be offered them when you're looking for in-game stuff instead.

If anything is pay to win in this game it's definitely those and I'd love to see sub tokens removed entirely. They are total shit.

Couldn't agree more!

[Undefined]

Personally I don't believe sub token trading is at all PAY 2 WIN - Those items already exist in the world, it's simply transfer of ownership. Makes no difference to me if person A has it or if person B does.

It used to be that pearls were the most used form of currency and everyone would equate their trades to pearls when trading with other things. Sub tokens have not improved trading at all and I'd argue have only made it much worse. There are some traders that will ONLY accept sub tokens for their more valuable goods and it's just as annoying to be offered them when you're looking for in-game stuff instead.

If anything is pay to win in this game it's definitely those and I'd love to see sub tokens removed entirely. They are total shit and fuck the devs for ever implementing them and fuck them harder for reading the complaints about them and doing nothing.

Surely it's more of an inconvenience in the trading system? People only accepting something you don't have or only offering something you don't want also sounds like you could obtain them with a bit of legwork in-game. So your issue has nothing to do with a pay 2 win situation where real money trading makes people far more powerful than the average player (and thus they "win" somehow), your issue is that the sub token option inconveniences your trade efficiency.
Probably a valid concern, but one I think worth putting up with in order to help finance the game.

[ven]

I'd rather have a pay to play system than a free game with subtokens.

But unless we're paying for gold bars or high quality endgame equipment I don't think the current model strictly qualifies as pay to win. Haven isn't a winnable game, there's no server scoreboards, no kill counts, no real pvp champs and no prizes for having higher stats than someone else. Not that being pay to win should be a bad thing either.

[Kaios]

Surely it's more of an inconvenience in the trading system? People only accepting something you don't have or only offering something you don't want also sounds like you could obtain them with a bit of legwork in-game. So your issue has nothing to do with a pay 2 win situation where real money trading makes people far more powerful than the average player (and thus they "win" somehow), your issue is that the sub token option inconveniences your trade efficiency.
Probably a valid concern, but one I think worth putting up with in order to help finance the game.

Wrong, a bit of legwork would have been obtaining the pearls to buy that higher quality stuff you wanted. Going to the store and buying sub tokens isn't legwork and why should I or anyone else be forced in to that situation when it does absolutely nothing to improve the game-play. In fact I'd argue it only worsens it because you're entirely skipping that aspect of the game where you put in effort to make that trade and you lose that sense of accomplishment. It is indeed detrimental whether you can see that or not.

The efficiency factor has nothing to do with it and I have traded with sub tokens before and I still don't like it.

[Ysh]

Surely it's more of an inconvenience in the trading system? People only accepting something you don't have or only offering something you don't want also sounds like you could obtain them with a bit of legwork in-game. So your issue has nothing to do with a pay 2 win situation where real money trading makes people far more powerful than the average player (and thus they "win" somehow), your issue is that the sub token option inconveniences your trade efficiency.
Probably a valid concern, but one I think worth putting up with in order to help finance the game.

Wrong, a bit of legwork would have been obtaining the pearls to buy that higher quality stuff you wanted. Going to the store and buying sub tokens isn't legwork and why should I or anyone else be forced in to that situation when it does absolutely nothing to improve the game-play. In fact I'd argue it only worsens it because you're entirely skipping that aspect of the game where you put in effort to make that trade and you lose that sense of accomplishment. It is indeed detrimental whether you can see that or not.

The efficiency factor has nothing to do with it and I have traded with sub tokens before and I still don't like it.

How big of thing was trade with PayPal money before sub token was add?

[Kaios]

How big of thing was trade with PayPal money before sub token was add?

I don't know, you weren't allowed to advertise real money trades over the forum. It was still a thing but certainly not as prevalent.

[shadyg0d]

While I didn't want this to become a debate I'm glad to see I have created a dialog. Maybe I was ahead of the times and this needed to happen first.

To clarify, I'd agree it's the A)subtokens and B)+%50 character development that bother me the most. Even the inventory space and convenience are ridiculous but that isn't what triggered me to make this thread.

The character development rate is a huge deal and I don't see how anyone with a basic understanding of math can call this a "very slight" advantage... I don't see why this needs to be explained...

The subtokens are very bad too. They completely override the concept of supply and demand, competition, etc... People are literally getting something for nothing. A LOT for nothing if you consider that subtokens are the most valuable item in the game. Obviously with how small the playerbase is the subtokens have not really reached their full potential. The more players this game has, the bigger the market is for subtokens. It's basically the same thing as buying in-game currency.

All these things taken together should be worrying to any serious player. Look at the road we're going down. It's getting worse and worse and hardly anyone cares. Even if you don't think it's a big deal now, when will it become a big deal? +%100 character development rate? Ore for cash? Double inventory space? Many of us already agree it's gone too far and there is no indication, based on the response of the devs to criticism, that they see anything wrong with it. Only the players can stop this.

TLDR; I think most of you are completely in denial

[Ysh]

While I didn't want this to become a debate I'm glad to see I have created a dialog. Maybe I was ahead of the times and this needed to happen first.

You can not make controversial claim without expecting debates.

To clarify, I'd agree it's the A)subtokens and B)+%50 character development that bother me the most. Even the inventory space and convenience are ridiculous but that isn't what triggered me to make this thread.

Noted.

The character development rate is a huge deal and I don't see how anyone with a basic understanding of math can call this a "very slight" advantage... I don't see why this needs to be explained...

+50% rate is obvious very big advantage. I would not try to argue this one. Probable worth pointing out that stat cap makes this less of advantage (takes f2p longer to hit cap, but can compete on level ground at cap eventually).

The subtokens are very bad too.

I think sub token is necessary evil (see below).

They completely override the concept of supply and demand, competition, etc...

How so? It is just as any other item is.

People are literally getting something for nothing. A LOT for nothing if you consider that subtokens are the most valuable item in the game.

Compare these two scenario:

• I buy sub token in shop for $10 and trade it to you for 10 gold bars.
• I buy 10 gold bars in shop for $10.

Surely you can see massive difference in these two situation. In the second scenario, price for gold bar is fixed at $1 per bar. In first scenario gold bar is worth $1 per bar because that is its relative value to other items in game. The reality is completely opposite of point you are try to make here. Buying items from the shop directly is getting something for nothing. Any item you trade for sub token must have been produce by the efforts of some other player.

Obviously with how small the playerbase is the subtokens have not really reached their full potential. The more players this game has, the bigger the market is for subtokens.

You can replace ''subtoken'' with any item in game and this point is still valid i.e. this point says no thing. More player in market = bigger market. This is obvious and true regardless of item.

It's basically the same thing as buying in-game currency.

Sub token is literally buy in-game currency. This is intent of item. I think sub token is necessary evil in game. Without sub token, there will still be real money trades as you can see gold sales in other MMO. Obvious with tokens, this becomes endorsed and more common in a relative sense, which is maybe argument. But in boolean sense, fact remains that ''player can buy game item with money'' will always be true in any game with tradable items. Since eliminating this unfortunate reality is impossible, next best strategy is to embrace and profit from it. Sub token is basically jorb and loftar tax on people who do real money trade.

All these things taken together should be worrying to any player who doesn't have their head up their ass. Look at the road we're going down. It's getting worse and worse and hardly anyone cares. Even if you don't think it's a big deal now, when will it become a big deal?

Obvious that now I think game is not too pay to win. When it becomes this is when I care.

+%100 character development rate?

This is fine.

Ore for cash?

This is not fine, see gold example above.

Double inventory space?

This is fine.

Many of us already agree it's gone too far and there is no indication, based on the response of the devs to criticism, that they see anything wrong with it. Only the players can stop this.

I think if dev does not respond to criticism then the answer is better criticism and not yell louder.

To say it again, most of you are completely in denial

Indeed, I do deny that game is pay to win currently. Because I do not think this is true.

Now that I have reply, I think I can say my own piece. ''Pay to win'' is not anything that give some advantage to those who play, it is something where chance of winning goes up with the amount you pay. With Haven, you can get full advantage if you pay $7/mo. for subscription. It does not matter if I have $100,000 that I want to spend on game, or just that $7 I want to spend, I will have same advantage in either case. There is a limit on how much money is affecting your winrate.

I think to use some Magic: the Gathering example is good one here. If you are not familiar, this is some trading card games and it can be very expensive. You can look here that competitive deck for legacy format can be $1000 USD minimum, sometime as much as $2k or $3k for certain deck. If you only have some $10 or $100 USD to spend, you will surely not be competitive, and probable lose every single game. Does this make Magic pay to win game? I would say no, not at all. It is just a game that cost up to $3000 USD to play it. Assuming both player is willing and able for spend $3000 USD, it does not matter how much more money they could spend. Once they are in the match it is only their skill (and luck of draws) that determines winner, and neither thing is bought.

How about Counter Strike: Global Offensive? Is this pay to win game? I would say no, and I expect even you would agree. I do not play this game, but to my knowledge there is no way to buy ingame advantage, just cosmetic skins and such. So why does this enter discussing at all? According to this here it looks like the game cost $14.99 to play it. It would be hard to win the game if you can not play it, I think. Does this make CS:GO pay to win because the man with $10 will always lose to the man with $15 to spend? To say yes to this is to agree that every game in world is pay to win and makes entire thing meaningless.

Haven is same way as these games. Haven is a game that cost $7/mo. to play it. If you want to play this game, you will pay the price to play it. Lucky though, developer allow you to play demo of game for as long as you like for free.

All that being said, I would love if Haven could be like Dota 2, where every player can play the full game for free. I would like if my rent is free too. But that is not economically viable at this moment. Jorb say on stream that he agree that the shop is a negative thing and he would remove if he could. Your time is wasted saying shop is bad. We all know it is bad, but it is best thing we have right now. Come up with something better and shop will go away I think. And until that point, current implementation is not game breaking.

[omocho]

Expecting everything to come to you for free is very ignorant. The game would dry up and die if it was purely sub based (pay2play). So that isn't an option.
Purely cosmetic cash shops has worked for exactly one game, Path of Exile. Mostly because it received hundreds of thousands of $ in backer money to gain momentum and massive popularity.

This leaves the last bastion of hope, convenience.
Increased FEPs is NOT pay to win. it slightly speeds up levelling stats. A lot less than you might think too just by looking at the %.
I'm not sure if char development involves LP too but it's a similar story. It slightly speeds up character development.
As you level, it gets slower and slower. Meaning people can quite easily catch up to a significant portion of your power even with no bonuses. The bonuses also matter less and less the higher you are.

Increased crafting speed/action speed doesn't need to be explained. I think anyone with a brain agrees this is not at all P2W.

Pay 2 win has become a massive F2P crybaby phrase in the MMO community. 9/10 good games aren't P2W. People are just entitled idiots and expect everything for free. Jorbtar aren't selling 300 QL steel armor gilded with 100 STR, or 500 QL Battleaxes.
Get over it m8. There's no P2W here.

The only arguable things are sub tokens but I have no comment on this because i've never seen anyone talk about or use them. I never knew they were valued.