Hunger Levels and Eating

[qoonpooka]

I like the Symbel a lot and don't want to see it slip away. I think making it entirely about FEPs boosting will hurt it a bit too much. A lot of the feedback here has been about multiplier stacking. I think you can apply a diminishing returns function to cap it. I'm an EVE Player, so I'm familiar with the Module Bonus Stacking Penalty there:

There's a lot of modules that do the same thing to the same stat, and they apply their bonuses as a multiplier. Consider something that makes your ship 10% faster. (Working with numbers I know, sorry.)

Base speed: 100m/sec.
1 +10% Module: 100 * 1.1 = 110m/sec.
2 +10% Module: 100 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 121m/sec.
3 +10% module: 100 * 1.1^3 = 133m/sec.
4 +10% Module: 100 * 1.1^4 = 146m/sec
5 +10% Module: 100 * 1.1^5 = 161m/sec - Note the basically free full effect of a 6th module you've picked up now.

With stacking penalties, the 2nd module only applies ~87.5% of its effect, the 3rd 75%, the 4th 50%, and the 5th 25%.

So:

1 +10% Module: 100 * 1.1 = 110m/sec.
2 +10% Module: 100 * 1.1 * 1.0875 = 120m/sec.
3 +10% Module: 100 * 1.1 * 1.0875 * 1.075 = 128m/sec
4 +10% Module: 100 * 1.1 * 1.0875 * 1.075 * 1.05 = 135m/sec
5 +10% Module: 100 * 1.1 * 1.0875 * 1.075 * 1.05 * 1.025 = 138m/sec

You do still get a benefit from the 5th module, but you only install it if you've got literally nothing better to do. Most ships stop at fitting the 3rd module. Some pure DPS ships will go for 4 or even 5 damage mods, but that's a very corner case application. When you have multiple different mods with different effects, they get ordered so that the strongest bonus is applied first, without penalty, the 2nd strongest goes second with the least penalty, etc, so that players don't have to try and figure out how to control for weird system behaviors.

Symbel already does something like this, I think, there's some wiki text to the effect that filling your table with either items of the same type (wooden plate), or same category (wood plate + earthenware plate + porcelain plate), or just more symbel (wood plate + tankard + linen tablecloth + stoneware vase) results in lowered or non-linear effect of symbel items.

Experience says it's the last case. I don't duplicate items and I'm as spread out in various categories of items as I can be, but when I put that 30% hunger mod porcelain plate on the table, it doesn't go 30% of the way from where it is to zero, it moves like... 2%.

Apparently a) the effect of high quality symbel is still too strong, b) there's off-table stuff that profoundly impacts the table and isn't subject to the same stacking penalties.

I suggest:

1) Make stacking penalties about categories, re-work FEPs/Hunger benefits of symbel accordingly.
2) Make bonfires and Charisma subject to stacking penalties.
3) Reduce the impact of Charisma and additional friends for bonfires (perhaps softcap the benefit by the CHA of all participants? Make those soldiers grind CHA too, if they want to pull these shenanigans... I haven't used a bonfire since W7.)

Also, if it doesn't already, bonfire feasting should absolutely wreck symbel durability. Anyone who's had to clean up after a party knows why...

[NOOBY93]

What do you think of my concept nooby? By setting the volume ratio appropriately, it shouldn't hurt noobs/hermits because they eat lower volumes of food naturally anyway. And for endgame factions it at a certain point encourages you to try eating something else because you've eaten your pie satiation down to 25%

Well you might be able to tell from my post that I think satiation as a whole should go. "It shouldn't hurt noobs because they don't eat much" is not a good argument, is the only way to avoid getting crippled as a noob to simply not eat much at all? Noobs would be doomed to low stats.

I agree with removal of hunger, and in general, my standpoint in discussions like these is always this: Adding more obscure systems does nothing but benefit the top players and make the game unreasonably complex for everyone else.

Let me rephrase. Eating shitty foods, as noobs are want to do, fucks them only for shitty food categories like forage. Because they eat less food in general, they will have higher % bonuses from the satiation system as I proposed it. Ergo, eating less as a playstyle will fuck them a lot less. Honestly, I feel this is what hunger was intended to do and unfortunately failed.

However, unlike hunger, factions will have their best interest to continue pounding food down. The difference is noobs will be able to continue advancing (eating berries for energy will not destroy their stat gain when they get a farm going), and factions will be less insanely overpowered. Just nicely overpowered.

Oh and I was thinking something like 100 units of food to take it down to 50%, regenerates to 100% within 1 day. So we're talking closer to faction volume for this than noob volume. Noobs should barely scratch it.

This sounds nice assuming noobs eat a small amount of food. The moment noobs decide "I want to be a big strong pvp competitive man!" the system fucks them, because, just like any other system you can think of, faction players will easily rotate foods to get the optimal stats for the least amount of effort, while noobs will not be able to shit out so many different kinds of good foods and will be stuck at either eating a small amount of food, or eating a lot at a great penalty. Not a good solution IMO

I think players shouldn't be forced into eating different foods, but be able to eat specific foods if they want to, maybe fisherman will eat only fish and not be at an insane penalty, etc. Forcing diversification of food benefits faction players, cripples noobs AND forces everyone into the same playstyle (do everything - hunting, farming, fishing, cooking)

[Sevenless]

No matter what we do, factions will beat noobs in stats hardcore. Q grind if nothing else assures that. What we can do to ameliorate that is make stat differences less important in fighting, or make stats get harder and harder to get beyond a certain point to curb faction bloat.

I think my suggestion is closer to a more reasonable balance, that also gives inbuilt incentives to vary your food groups up.I also don't see why a noob being ready to try stat pounding would be limited to making only good foods of one type. As a mostly hermit player, my pies and sausages have always kept similar quality. Most noobs like me don't just power Q one item with their time, they spread it around and shitty Q grind everything.

This seems true of all the hermits/beginners I've ever found to talk to.

[stickman]

from reading the others i think with satiations one way to change it up would be to remove/change liquids... maybe drinking liquids gives buffs to different attributes for a few minutes instead of being food related. You get rid of the "food" satition type, and make each food satiate the satiation it uses by a certain %... so apple pie would do something like 1% bread & 1% fruit and steak and tuber would do meat and veggies... Doing it this way you know if you eat 50 apple pies it would bring your fruit below 50% and you would have a chance to reset it...

If you combine this with a salt change and remove hunger modifying of tables you would REALLY force people to pay attention to combining different foods to get the variety bonus... probably make gathering ants forest foragables worthwhile also (no one ever picks them up right now)

[NOOBY93]

No matter what we do, factions will beat noobs in stats hardcore. Q grind if nothing else assures that. What we can do to ameliorate that is make stat differences less important in fighting, or make stats get harder and harder to get beyond a certain point to curb faction bloat.

I think my suggestion is closer to a more reasonable balance, that also gives inbuilt incentives to vary your food groups up.I also don't see why a noob being ready to try stat pounding would be limited to making only good foods of one type. As a mostly hermit player, my pies and sausages have always kept similar quality. Most noobs like me don't just power Q one item with their time, they spread it around and shitty Q grind everything.

This seems true of all the hermits/beginners I've ever found to talk to.

Almost word for word what I said a couple of months ago in a discussion with you. Yes, hardcore grinders will always be vastly stronger than noobs, but what I'm currently arguing is that implementing systems like satiation just makes the problem even greater.

My solution is not to just rip out both of those systems, as the problem of hardcore grinders being so vastly more powerful than casual players remains. Casual players are completely irrelevant a month into the world.

My solution is to rip out the systems, then make combat MORE one-shotty, increase weapon damage in general so noobs with Q100 swords or whatever can go through the best of armor, and add the 4th root on stats to manuevers as well (they currently don't I'm pretty sure, and are very powerful if you have more UA than the enemy, even by 20%).

[Sevenless]

Same problem will happen though, for the variety suggestion stick. Food with FEPs and variety bonus >>> food with basically no FEPs and variety bonus. So long as there's some kind of meaningful penalty to eating said ant bit (like a hunger penalty), it'll never really be worth it.

[viznew]

i def feel noob when it comes to this but i dislike the hunger bar and what comes with it, i dont hate it but because of it and mostly only playing a few chars it gets all outta wack when i do big working jobs, satiation on the other hand i love, makes me explore more eating options tends to make me branch out from the norm (which is great) i think satiation playing a major role whould be great i can work none stop and just vary what i eat and not find my self behind as much

is my non expert option

[Sevenless]

@nooby at its heart, the intent behind a satiation/hunger system is to reward a player for the first piece of food they eat the most, and the last they eat the least and to encourage variety of foods. If it's implemented right, like Rest XP in WoW, it benefits casual players more than it does hardcores. I think this satiation system doesn't work, but I don't think the concept of it is fundamentally flawed if it's done right. If my suggested penalty only really started to kick in after 50-100 food items, noobs/small villages wouldn't be hurt by this. Large factions relatively would be. And I disagree that making food variety is harder for a noob/small village than it is for a faction. But if it's really a concern, lets just make forage/fish satiation not exist. Foraged foods mostly suck anyway, so it wouldn't super power factions or anything. Fish can't be quality ground notably either (not including items other than roasted fish flesh in the "not part of the satiation" thing). That way noobs could feast on their crappy foods happily until they get a village running. But at the point of village running, they will be accessing quite a few food groups and any issue with the satiation system punishing them more should evaporate.

Also, they'd still have to hit quite a bit of playtime to start really kicking these satiation penalties in on pies or whatever. At which point I'd question calling them small time villages/noobs.

[Aceb]

After getting first time into bigger village and being properly taught how satiations works: it's broken af.
With proper setup, new alt / new resurrection, You can quickly regain stats, maybe not fully, but far enough a proper hermit or small village could afford compared to big villages and factions especially.


Now, going further, it begins broken WHEN You reach a certain point, which is having developed in quality stuff, good amount of desired drink (I understand why meatpies or generally food with drinks is broken).

Literally, before I joined a bigger village, I could kill my character to get faster and better stats or something very close to that with better planning.



My idea would be to remove half of foods (while I like sausages & meat, both are mostly meat), make for each bar like for satiations, remove satiation completely, leaving a satation seperatly for each kind of food (maybe in later time come back for bigger variety of categories) that once it reached 100%, it fep gain is reduced to 10%. All would be "regenerating" slowly like now satiation in 300%, while certain drinks and bed could make the reduction time a lot faster.

At same time I would increase food stat gain to recompensate for lack of 300%, like: grub / boar meat 1+ STR, bear +2STR, Troll +4 STR, etc.

Also, I wanted to propose nerfing eating above full energy bar, but it would be bad for professions that do not spend a lot of energy (tailors, foragers, warriors...) and it would highly promote spending your energy at all cost instead of trying to reduce it as much as possible.


Also, I've seen better ideas but wanted to drop few words, maybe someone will combine it with something.

[DeadlyPencil]

Hi Jorb,

This is what we currently have for satiations
Bread
Meat
Game
Fruit
Cheese

what if we were to simply have the food itself as the satiation? so...
Pumkin Pie
Apple Pie
Steak and Tuber
Bat Wing

Every time you eat a food, you reduce that foods satiation by a certain %. Then each food would replenish itself by a certain % a day. So lets say you reduce it by 5% each time you eat it, then increase it by 1% per day. I would prefer it regaining over time rather than liquids reducing satiations. I would prefer if liquids did other stuff.

you would have to play with those numbers in conjunction with whatever you plan on doing with hunger and food bonus, as you would have to fix those first before knowing what % to apply.

This would make the list of satiations huge.... but it would encourage people to eat more of a variety of foods.