Current game mechanics support a shorter world

[dafels]

Reset Hafen to the purest state - world 8. And try to not fuck up this time...

[Aceb]

I read it and agree more or less 100% with it.

[bmjclark]

I feel like people who are quitting almost always aren't coming back until the next world anyways. All stuff like this does is punish the people who want to continue playing by giving them absolutely nothing to do.

To be honest, I'd argue that if the only meaningful content you have is endlessly increasing your numbers through spiraling that the game has failed anyways. Part of the reason that players don't come back is because endless grinds completely discourage it.

[The_Lich_King]

Reset Hafen to the purest state - world 8. And try to not fuck up this time...

w8 was one of the worst worlds in Haven history why the heck would you reset it to then, also even if we were to dial it back to a really good world like w10, so much development would be lost it still would probably be pretty bad from all that we don't have now. What we should do is fix our problems so they don't persist and try not to dial back development to before they existed.

[The_Lich_King]

I feel like people who are quitting almost always aren't coming back until the next world anyways. All stuff like this does is punish the people who want to continue playing by giving them absolutely nothing to do.

To be honest, I'd argue that if the only meaningful content you have is endlessly increasing your numbers through spiraling that the game has failed anyways. Part of the reason that players don't come back is because endless grinds completely discourage it.

I actually agree with this, the thing i hated about spiraling is how it exacerbated the grind issue even worse. At the end of w10 the only thing left in the entire game to do was spiraling. Nobody did anything else at all, and i don't think thats a goal we should aim for.

[ChildhoodObesity]

I feel like people who are quitting almost always aren't coming back until the next world anyways. All stuff like this does is punish the people who want to continue playing by giving them absolutely nothing to do.

To be honest, I'd argue that if the only meaningful content you have is endlessly increasing your numbers through spiraling that the game has failed anyways. Part of the reason that players don't come back is because endless grinds completely discourage it.

I actually agree with this, the thing i hated about spiraling is how it exacerbated the grind issue even worse. At the end of w10 the only thing left in the entire game to do was spiraling. Nobody did anything else at all, and i don't think thats a goal we should aim for.

World 10 was the only world where this wasn't the case. PVP was consistent throughout the world, trade was consistent, it had the biggest market with many events that tons of people came to participate in. It pretty much had everything and I feel like a lot of people would agree it was the best world since world 7.

Anyways I entirely agree that so much more meaningful content is needed and that if there was content in other areas that at least gave some bit of a reason to continue playing then endless grind might not be necessary. However, I haven't seen any amazing suggestions for great content or anything that would cause a big group of players to not quit when they would have otherwise.

[azrid]

World 10 was the only world where this wasn't the case. PVP was consistent throughout the world, trade was consistent, it had the biggest market with many events that tons of people came to participate in. It pretty much had everything and I feel like a lot of people would agree it was the best world since world 7.

I think it was the people that made w10 great.
I don't think you could captivate great people with another episode of infinite grind.
I wish your idea was the easy solution.

[vatas]

My two cents: It sucked when my friend back in w11 made Wrought Iron and I had to try and explain that we could just instead trade Cast Iron to big boys for Wrought Iron that would be trash to them but incredibly hq for us.

I realize I'm complaining that we had excellent trade opportunity but basically if we wanted to play optimally, we were locked out from entire industry because other people had orders of magnitude better industry stuff.

[jordancoles]

I don't think that q1500 b12s, anvils and plate bodies are the solution to longevity of the worlds. It creates a massive gap between the mid-tier/solo/small groups and the faction boys who have 50+ tokens stored in their hearthfires from the CF market (Which was worlds ago) who now have infinite buying power. Those gear items may trickle down through trade to the masses, but that is totally up to the factions to decide if they want to spread the wealth or stay untouchable titans.

Hitting the ceiling feels bad, sure. And I'm sure there will always be people racing to the top and then not knowing what to do with themselves once they get there, but I'm not sure if I would call them the majority. There are lots of players who are more than willing to derp around with the q13 bronze sword they took 4 caveins to create and to larp with their neighbors. Hitting a 700 animal cap isn't even on the radar for 99% of the community and those that do quit after hitting that wall might have to turn to roleplaying or decorative building or something because they've already pushed the boundaries to what is imo an unacceptably high limit already compared to the normies of this game.

I would argue that being cleaved for 80%+ of your health from full hp when you're at 20% opening and wearing armor just because the dude had an insane axe and strength made on his insane anvil is more of a demotivating factor and would affect more peoples' willingness to continue playing over the few who hit the item caps and don't know what to do with their time.

I get wanting to continue to see numbers go up, but I'm not sure if it is a good thing after a while. Assuming you look at the game as a pvp experience and consider the average player's odds vs some of the big boys over time, you get to a point where, like you said, the barrier of entry is so high that people are more likely to wait until the next world rather than trying become influential in their area. After a while there is no such thing as a new group rising up and giving the established factions a run for their money. You get to the point where unless you're on a slow drip from a faction's teet you won't be able to make a dent on anyone who is pvp-oriented that came before you.

We quit during the previous worlds you're referencing basically the same day we realized gear and stat qualities were unobtainable for us without faction approval, and that those qualities made all of the difference in holding your own in a pvp situation. B12 quality, strength and armor quality being the main divides between the big boys and the scrappy newcomers.

I am not sure what the solution to world longevity is right now, but allowing qualities to go off of the rails again doesn't feel like the answer to me.

[harrywawa]

Beautifully articulated analysis of this game's strongest element: the interlocking crafting system.

I played 5 worlds or so, a couple solo and a few with one friend. We get to metal, get those meaty palisades, expand the village, get the bigly carrots and turnips, fill the feast hall cupboards to bursting and inevitably succumb to the malaise. We don't trade, we hardly interact with other players, certainly not without a stout wall between us. I've never struck another player, never been struck by another and never lost a base while actively playing.

The PvP elements are a sort of poison, limiting what could be, forcing game-theory-expedient extreme distrust. I think it would be dishonest to tell a new player the most appropriate course of action when seeing another player is anything other than immediate retreat. I thought Salem had an interesting approach with the central hub allowing for interaction. Even something as simple as chatting, this game just doesn't have that. A global chat box when? Why do we have to use discord as a surrogate?

Anyway, I come back world after world, not with the illusion that this time my girlfriend and I will have the world's best stone axe or smelter or bar of tin or feather trinket. I return like a writer to a blank page or painter to a blank canvas, full of the promise and hope of the new/old discoveries. To see if I'm going to once again buffoon my village layout. Will my industrial area once again become a disaster of stockpiles (this world: yes), or perhaps I have become changed by my past mistakes. The game itself, sans any other player, acts as a crucible, which I feel appeals deeply to Jorb's sensibilities (and mine as well).

An infinite scaling number game is certainly a heady, almost intoxicating, prospect. I think the idea is right directionally, but that zent had the most eyes-open thoughts regarding great achievements and milestones adding a sense of permanent progression. A foxcape for killing a thousand foxes or a q500 metal badge, these are cool ideas to add more structure and goal-orientation to this game, and I think they would be steps the right way. We don't really need another 8 month combat rework, the players will simply find the uppercut/sideswipe or quickbarrage/full circle and move on. You don't play to the game's strength when you aim there.

You don't have to do everything great, but rather you should focus on what you are the best at. Every damn player in this game is here because they love crafting. There are a pile of games that do PvP and trade and survival and every other element better. But I can't think of one other game that does crafting as perfectly. It is such a cool concept, all these players from around the world, gathering spruce cones, focusing everything they got on growing the best, most beautiful tree. I love it and love the zen-like essence of it. It plays to that utopian idea that we take the elements of this world and ultimately strive to improve them.

Far as world length: I would love if a new world were announced with a set end date, like it will run through 3 in-game years and at the end of the 3rd summer we reset or such. My intuition is players will still be there at the start, the ones who race up the quality mountain and fall into the abyss of meaninglessness, and the ones who meander and role play and do whatever. We all want that blank page experience and we show up again and again and our passions light anew like so many sticks rubbed together. My hunch is that the profitability of this venture will rise tremendously. As a free-to-play you want to capture that rush of enthusiasm, that is where the subs and donations and so on come in. A new world pushed every 6 months or so might be just right. It strikes me that only the most naïve players believe the world will never end and their works are immortal. We are all just writing on the water here and this should be embraced structurally.

Thanks for the beautiful write-up childhood obesity, reading it inspired me. The passion of this community is a testament to this game. Thanks Jorb and Loftar.

PS Tree seeds in the springtime isn't too much to ask