Disable or Implement a Toggle for PVP

[vatas]

Let's imagine you have a MOBA that doesn't have any clear feedback for "last hit a minion = gain gold."

What should the developers do?
1) increase the passive gold gain to reduce disparity between people who know to lasthit, and those that don't
2) reduce the gold bounty of creeps for similar effect
3) add said feedback, to make it clear that kind of the whole point of the game is to last hit minions (at least during the early game)

How does this relate to Haven? Well, in my humble opinion, Jorb and Loftar have been doing way too much Haven equivalent to 1 and 2, while almost completely ignoring the 3.

Click here for more similar yapping.

[Kaios]

I like that analogy. I definitely agree that when it comes to resolving discrepancies in implementations they tend to focus on fixes that complicate the process without modifying the end result, not really giving any thought as to how players interact with those mechanics.

When players say that botting of a mechanic means that mechanic is bad or poorly implemented I think that's looking at the issue from a rather narrow perspective. Should it not also be the case that combat mechanics are bad/poorly implemented if it is necessary to modify the entire graphical output and interface of the game client in order to participate effectively? Well yes actually I'm sure that's partly true, but it doesn't mean the entire implementation or ideas themselves are bad, they may just be implemented in a way that does not utilize their full potential.

Many mechanics simply aren't evident to new players and even many long-time experienced players still learn new things they did not know when it comes to interacting with the game using the many various and obscure methods possible.

[Reiber]

I like that analogy. I definitely agree that when it comes to resolving discrepancies in implementations they tend to focus on fixes that complicate the process without modifying the end result, not really giving any thought as to how players interact with those mechanics.

When players say that botting of a mechanic means that mechanic is bad or poorly implemented I think that's looking at the issue from a rather narrow perspective. Should it not also be the case that combat mechanics are bad/poorly implemented if it is necessary to modify the entire graphical output and interface of the game client in order to participate effectively? Well yes actually I'm sure that's partly true, but it doesn't mean the entire implementation or ideas themselves are bad, they may just be implemented in a way that does not utilize their full potential.

Many mechanics simply aren't evident to new players and even many long-time experienced players still learn new things they did not know when it comes to interacting with the game using the many various and obscure methods possible.

you are getting something wrong here. its jorbtard that say that "botting is a result of bad mechanics" themself.
nobody is saying that we have great mechanics, they get botted.
in recent times, we made great strides towards actually having better mechanics, that are less bottable, and less ass, so the desire to bot is lower, in contrast to just piling bandaid fixes ontop of eachother, that are punishing as fuck, and incentivise botting, like it often was the case in the past.

[Kaios]

Well okay fair enough, whether it's the devs or players saying it my point remains the same however. Personally I'm of the belief that the majority of botting would continue even with perfect mechanics. When you look at its base elements, egregious levels of botting are mainly derived from the capability to easily create and maintain throw-away alt characters. Does that mean creating multiple characters should be removed/prevented? Some would say yes, most would probably say no. I think it's obvious what the best solution would be to curb the overall levels of botting, but that doesn't make it the best solution for the game as a whole. That's kind of what I'm getting at I guess, if that makes any sense at all.

[Audiosmurf]

I'm still chuckling about jorb asking like "What's the difference between botting and the sawmill?? They're both automation"