99% of PVP/permadeath woes are an onboarding issue

[lemongrabz]

use the gold sub money to hire someone to get loftar's ass in gear and make valhalla actually useful with bots you can train on

think about if, even Dwarf Fortress needed to hire Putnam to keep Tarn's autism in check

what are you even talking about? people who quit 3 hours in did not quit the game because they werent good enough at pvp

the main thing for getting players to stick with this game is definetly the onboarding, people log in for the first time and have absolutely no clue what the hell they should be doing, other than people who are used to playing wiki games and looking up everything, normal people have no idea whats going on and just quit.

theres only so much you can do to help keep people on, theres a real limit on this game when it comes to wide appeal, this is never gonna be a game with 10k daily players be honest, this game appeals to a very specific and niche kind of person, and that kind of person is not quitting because they got ganked once and died, and people who do quit because of that never would have stuck around for long anyway.

[magnet]

bro if the game is never gonna have widespread appeal (i agree btw) then "onboarding" doesnt fucking matter. anyone with enough autism to play this game is gonna read the wiki or watch a youtube video and figure it out

also snail with how incessantly you brag about dropping people in the oldfag noob category i think you have a vested interest in keeping that group as large as possible
i do agree with ur other posts that pvp shit should be baked into the game more tho

[SnuggleSnail]

I can see why you'd think otherwise, but I'm genuinely not bragging about killing hermits. It just amazes/interests me that people can still be helpless toddlers with like 2 years of /played. If anything my bias is for people being better, since pushing in baby softspots without security ever showing up just like work after a while.

enough autism to play this game is gonna read the wiki or watch a youtube video and figure it out

This is demonstrably a bit silly, though. It doesn't matter that the potential audience is small, you can capture a larger portion of it by not alienating everybody who doesn't wanna put in a lot of mental effort figuring out dumb shit. The joy of discovery is a retarded swedish fairytale.

[ZamAlex]

what are you even talking about? people who quit 3 hours in did not quit the game because they werent good enough at pvp

the main thing for getting players to stick with this game is definetly the onboarding, people log in for the first time and have absolutely no clue what the hell they should be doing, other than people who are used to playing wiki games and looking up everything, normal people have no idea whats going on and just quit.

theres only so much you can do to help keep people on, theres a real limit on this game when it comes to wide appeal, this is never gonna be a game with 10k daily players be honest, this game appeals to a very specific and niche kind of person, and that kind of person is not quitting because they got ganked once and died, and people who do quit because of that never would have stuck around for long anyway.

I can agree that in-game tutorial still fucking sucks, but by long, unskippable tutorials, with markers and things what you must do step by step are making me, and a lot of other people, just insane. Old version of Minecraft didn't have any achivements or craft book, but it was not a big deal for most of the players - things are intuative and fun to explore by yourself. Haven devs trying to use same way, but not quite succesful.

To be honest, I personaly know people, who didn't manage to get even at modern vesion of Minecraft, so you cannot make game for eveyone anyway. Most time when devs trying to expand their playerbase, they just shit to their old players and fan of their work, leaving with zero population at the end.

[IsThisRad]

make valhalla actually useful with bots you can train on

This is stupid but I believe the best attempt at equalizing these bubbles via an enhanced Valhalla would be offering 1-3 account hats for completing combat, running, and chasing tutorials or an "escape/defeat x number of bots" Valhalla quest system

enough autism to play this game is gonna read the wiki or watch a youtube video and figure it out

This is demonstrably a bit silly, though. It doesn't matter that the potential audience is small, you can capture a larger portion of it by not alienating everybody who doesn't wanna put in a lot of mental effort figuring out dumb shit. The joy of discovery is a retarded swedish fairytale.

+1 huge, also the potential audience for Haven is bigger than people assume. I believe it's underestimated. Either way, I feel like I'm going insane sometimes with the number of people who go to HavenandHearth.com/forum and unironically argue for "there is no possible way to solve this and/or they should just do nothing lol also please give us [insert playerbase splitting suggestion of your choice]" like come on guys

also snail with how incessantly you brag about dropping people in the oldfag noob category i think you have a vested interest in keeping that group as large as possible

You can disagree, but IMO Snail has a vested interest in the opposite. Snail doesn't get to have fun if there's not a healthy playerbase and some semblance of a PVP scene. If there was a long term rush and satisfaction to be had from patrolling rivers and KOing day 1 spruceheads and farmville hermits who carry master keys around 6 months into a world, there wouldn't be so much hopeless bitterness and apathy, from Snail and like everyone else who plays at that level. I'm annoyed and I'm not even one of them

[IsThisRad]

use the gold sub money to hire someone to get loftar's ass in gear and make valhalla actually useful with bots you can train on

what are you even talking about?

Why was this post enough to make you break a 5 year lurking streak? Getting a third person for project management/community engagement would be probably the best thing that could happen to this game in general, as long as Jorb/Loftar were serious about putting the hire to use and utilizing the extra structure/management.

We agree that onboarding is a problem, obviously. That would need to be a big part of what they evaluate.

Pretty much everyone playing games on a PC is playing wiki games unless they're Among Us/Peak type white high school juniors

[Robben_DuMarsch]

also snail with how incessantly you brag about dropping people in the oldfag noob category i think you have a vested interest in keeping that group as large as possible

You can disagree, but IMO [proceeds to make retard opinion.]

Let me give you a tip, especially you socially inept autists.
Don't judge people on what they say their intentions are, unless you have some reason to trust them.
When you want to divine someone's true intent, you'd do better to infer their goals based on their actions.
I suppose you should be given some leniency here because you're clearly not someone who has ever done Haven PVP competitively.

Snail has claimed to want healthy PvP and more people to be involved for years, but his proposals are just "keep things status quo because the devs are shit and understand nothing and only makes things worse." - When he does make a specific proposal, it's specifically to nerf anything other than his specific playstyle, and especially anything that *counters* the status quo.

In practice, he has actively advocated for years for the game's pvp to be as inhospitable as possible to anything but for 40-50 players. When called out on this, "lolz dev are shit and could fix the problems except for reasons I refuse to elaborate on, because I can't."
Snail also immediately hides behind the skirts of better players and attempts to form a mega-zerg whenever there is any real adversity in PvP whatsoever, primarily focuses on trying to pick on nabs, and then goes inactive until the lategame where he can bully players who have no PvP experience and no stats.

I fondly remember back in W15 when Snail's stupid little village couldn't even break the undried palisades on Whatever Bay's north-western wall, because I put some swords in the hands of the unwashed newbs, and Snail had to go and swallow Felix's semen for actual years in order to not feel so inept and impotent. (Then his alliance rage-quit when they couldn't break the undried palisades on the eastern wall, lolz.)

Haven PvP currently exists, primarily, for people who have a lot of time and aren't smart enough to compete on 2b2t, but still want to weaponize their autism.

[SnuggleSnail]

I feel like I'm going insane sometimes with the number of people who go to HavenandHearth.com/forum and unironically argue for "there is no possible way to solve this and/or they should just do nothing lol also please give us [insert playerbase splitting suggestion of your choice]" like come on guys

there is no possible way (for seatribe) to solve this. They are simply not competent enough.

It's an unimportant microcosm, but in game time exemplifies why this game can never be good. When you inspect something it's basically arbitrary if the timer it gives you is in game, or IRL time. You could fix this by adding "/3.29" to some print statements, then timers would go from being basically worthless/misinformation, to actually usable for non-nerds who haven't memorized which time every timer is.

The reason they have not made this highly requested 5 minute change in like ~15 years is because the "starting time" for resources would be non-composite/"ugly." So, instead of saying 1 day for a resource node to refill right after it's collected, it might say 7.29 hours, which makes loftar freak out.

That's it. They've refused to make this (kindof fucking important, especially in the case of siege) part of the game legible for over a decade because some backend number people wouldn't even see will be """ugly""". I could rant about it for paragraphs, but I think it's self evident why somebody with that kind of attitude is going to be incapable of making something good in general, let alone empathizing with new players/understanding how to make things intuitive.

The average patch makes the game worse, and it will never be better.

You are in a team with somebody who openly brags about how he raped a 14/15 year old girl because I guess having -1 fighter is a worse prospect than playing with a diddler, meanwhile my village had zero allies this world

basically everything you say is at least an implicit, but usually an outright lie that's designed to not even be convincing to anybody involved, but too much effort to correct for outsiders. I bet you like to pretend you're just ragebaiting, but I think the reality is just that you just get off on the idea of retarded hermits in a game 7 people play thinking ur a bigboi or something

[Robben_DuMarsch]

ur a bigboi or something

I love how much you project your insecurities.
I don't need to kill defenseless newbs and brag about it to feel like a bigboi.

[SnuggleSnail]

TBH I'd be interested in doing a therapy sessions based around why I don't feel like a bigboi in haven. I'm unarguably top 5 biggest bois, and arguably #1. I think I'd put myself at #2 behind felix, since even though I'm more effective at killing """real""" people than anybody else, the skill diff in set piece fights is large. That might just be me being humble, though.

But that said, I don't feel like I'm particularly good. I just feel like everybody else isn't a real person. Even when I'm killing B/C tier fighters I don't feel like it's me who's big, I feel like it's them that's small. I feel that way with most things in life, actually. There's been so many instances where I know in my brain I'm rly good at something, but in my heart I just feel like I'm a guy, ya'know. I don't think it's an insecurity thing, when I'm competing against somebody of lesser skill I don't feel like I'm an underdog. I still have realistic expectations. I just don't feel better, even though I "know" I am.

I never get bigger, only other people get smaller. Is it good or bad to think that way? Anyway, @vatas you should rly ban both robben and I for intentionally derailing. This IsThisRad retard seems like he still has hope/excited for haven and you shouldn't let people shit on it imo

edit:
oh and I don't think you've ever killed a real person lmao but you don't even let people get the right memo of you so you have plausible deniability when you get fucked because ur such a loser you can't handle somebody @ing you and saying "get fucked" so it's hadr to tell