General bots/botting discussion

[ArvinJA]

why

Probably because they're big companies (who think they can win impossible wars) and some kaios-type of person is a higher-up. They even took WoWGlider to court so.

[Kaios]

My question is why are those games spending effort and energy trying to prevent botting? They haven't eliminated botting in their games, but I reckon they've reduced it and in some cases forced it underground where the persistent bots or hacks are paywalled. They're big companies, their teams are smart enough to see incomplete results, but they continue doing it. Why? Is a reduction in bots (or a show of effort to fight them) creating benefits somewhere else, like in subscriber numbers? Could this reasoning apply to Haven and Hearth?

Great angle to come from, I never thought of that before when having this conversation. It's likely because they know that many players dislike bots or other automated scripts/programs as it is, at least in my opinion, a form of cheating and not many want to play with cheaters.

So yes while it might indeed be a battle they could never win, there is obviously very good reasons that they do it and I think part of that would be the obvious effect it has on your players when they see that you're attempting to better your game by taking those measures, as fruitless as they may or may not be.

[jorb]

This is anecdotal, but I've have trouble persuading friends to try a game where botting is sanctioned, even friends who love permadeath pvp and aren't intimidated by high risk high reward. I wish Haven had more players.

I don't want to mince words too much, but botting certainly isn't "sanctioned". We dislike it -- sometimes, for some reasons -- but we are also open and honest about what we can do about it, which is very little.

One effect that I'm sure the general war on bots that other MMOs fight has is to make botting less public and open, and, in an "out of sight out of mind" line of reasoning this can perhaps be confused, by some, for a meaningful reduction in actual incidence of botting. I suspect that this is what a lot of the people who argue for that proverbial "something" to be done actually want: a public effort with a lot of noise behind it, by which we all can pretend to have made a difference.

[pedorlee]

We don't have much coding power barra. Two people, and I was under the impression Jorb can't code. To get any effect on anti botting, they'd have to significantly cut back in updates. And as Jorb points out, that effect still might be nil.

If it's a question of developing the game and trying to minimize the benefits of botting, or having the game sit at a progress standstill isn't it better to tolerate the bots?

I really wanna know about Jorb coding skills. Loftar looks like the giften one, so I'm naturally more curious about how a man of laws has become a game producer.
Those are 2 completely different worlds mixed in what we call Haven. Also, through those last years ive received some info about Jorb, but nealry zero about the gnome, jeje.
Why so shy?

[Tonkyhonk]

a public effort with a lot of noise behind it, by which we all can pretend to have made a difference.

but it does make a bit of difference for non-botters. you do realize that many players just assume you allow bots and rmt by allowing those posts on the forums, dont you? some even thought you guys were encouraging it when you were quiet in previous worlds and left the game.

[dageir]

A real life comparison is this:
We know crime is present, and we know it will be present even if we try to do something about it, so we will just let go of policing and defence, because wth..

[Amanda44]

a public effort with a lot of noise behind it, by which we all can pretend to have made a difference.

but it does make a bit of difference for non-botters. you do realize that many players just assume you allow bots and rmt by allowing those posts on the forums, dont you? some even thought you guys were encouraging it when you were quiet in previous worlds and left the game.

Yeah, I did think for the longest time you were actually fine with it Jorb ... I still sort of get that impression to some extent if I'm honest. There was a whole forum section devoted to it in legacy with ppl openly using bots and showing others how.

I haven't read the whole thread, and don't intend to, I get fed up of the 'bot' debate, so sorry if this has already been said - a lot of games I play ban accounts that use bots and it does seem to have some impact, I know you only have to make a new account to get around it, but how many times will someone be prepared to do that if they keep getting caught? I'm assuming you don't do that here because the player base is so small ..? ... but if it encouraged new players by showing you won't tolerate botting easily then it can't hurt to take a tougher approach surely.

And, yes, I understand you keep saying they are hard to detect but most of us can spot them, so ... you can ask the rest of the player base to report, another thing other games do, having a special in game report button.

[pedorlee]

A real life comparison is this:
We know crime is present, and we know it will be present even if we try to do something about it, so we will just let go of policing and defence, because wth..

This is why "fate" or "failures while lighting" exist. The way to fight bots they've choosen is by implementing mechabics to sort out some automatisms bots do.
Last time you posted here, you pasred the web of a company who offers his anticheat system. Among his costumers you can find Rust developers. Do you think Rust is a good example of a free cheat game? Or is it a failure and , at some point, a waste of money?

[dageir]

Well, judging from the Rust forums, alot of people have been banned and are crying on the forums. A delight to see.

[APXEOLOG]

Bots will always be. You can outlaw them, but cannot defeat it.