better payment model brainstorm

[strpk0]

My view is that an average new player can very well have fun in this game, mostly until some 'old player' comes by and slaughter them for fun because they can and they don't have anything else to do exept raising numbers.

I (for a long time) see the current uncapped infinigrind as broken and a deterrent to getting fresh meat, and would be very happy to see Haven move toward something where you don't just grind up and then slaughter everything that moves - or be slaughtered while being busy with the first part. And in case 'old players' don't like that (or can't adapt to that) I'm not sad to see them go, because in my view a change toward limits on the numbers is needed.

What also contributes is that I experienced a good part of the 'old player' as them feeling entitled to something and then demanding to get (whatever, but now and for free) and being pissed and rude about anything they don't like - instead of being grateful for the experience in the past and happy to be able to play this nice game and giving thoughful feedback to further it.

Also I still vividly remember cleaning up the forum at Hafen launch night of comments from this community, among them gems like 'sad that the nazis didn't gas the devs parents in time' (and that's a quote) - just because now isn't back then. Read through P2P Plan and HEL to get an idea what I'm talking about, where stuff that didn't got an immediate hard delete ended up. That brought me further toward a stance of 'if you don't like the change (or demand the devs to bend over) then go away - come back in case you cool off and reconsidered'.

What I see as toxic are views like this:

this decision will finally bring about the demise of Haven

and the continuous player count and whining about price posts.

Thing here is that I can guarantee those people that vented out on the devs and gave such harsh criticism are the ones that have been playing this game for a long time, and whether they like to admit it or not ultimately care the most for it. Most new players will never have those "past experiences" and that long history of playing this game, and therefore they will never be able to care as much for it. They will simply abandon the game entirely when they feel it doesn't entertain them anymore. And at that point it will simply be the devs juggling stuff around to keep the "new people" entertained, and not really creating the game that everyone has wished for up until now. Just think of all the people that have been playing this game on and off for 5-6 years, but yet always seem to return whenever the devs come up with something nice. Yeah, I can guarantee the *new players* wouldn't be as likely to return at all.

It does suck that comments like that did pop up (and I'm also personally guilty of having been offensive towards the devs at that point in time), but you have to remember even 4chan was involved in that thread, so let's not throw the baby with the bathwater. Surely, being offensive and entitled isn't a way to help matters, but neither is repressing your feelings and opinions just to keep the forums nice and clean. People love this game and want it to be good, and they won't (and shouldn't be expected to) shut up when they notice a change that is going to be made ruins the game in some sort of fashion.
The community is as much of an integral part of the game as the game itself is. You can't simply expect the old players to go away and yet still keep the same old style of gameplay you like. Newer players will be more focused on stuff like "yay we can fish lost items from rivers", instead of more complex systems like PvP, siege and whatnot. The "old players" may get offensive, sure, but they are the people that - for the better or the worse - know better for this game. This is not to be offensive against new players, either. I think new people coming to the game is cool, and perhaps the game should be a bit more friendly to them (but even that is arguable).

Anyway, sorry for derailing. Just thought I'd leave my thoughts on this matter.

[LadyV]

I honestly think your missing the point. Haven is in a awkward transition from free to play to pay. The general player base resents limits of any kind. No matter what system is implemented there will be those who are upset. So the only solution is to minimize the impact. The only way to do that is to foster a system that allows free players to trade in some way with paying players who may have more money. Whether that is in game resources, work... If you can achieve the same as another by different means it fosters community as well. Because now we have to work together in some way.

[Granger]

People love this game and want it to be good, and they won't (and shouldn't be expected to) shut up when they notice a change that is going to be made ruins the game in some sort of fashion.

With change that is going to be made ruins the game in some sort of fashion == anything that dosn't give them a direct benefit or leads to them having to do something different.

The community is as much of an integral part of the game as the game itself is.

Is it? There are what, maybe ~5000 active people (extrapolated from the numbers online I have seen on W8 start).
Out of several tens of millions gamers worldwide. So no, I think the game would work without this community (should we simply vanish because of a glitch in the matrix), it would work with another group of people too - simply because the game is good.

You can't simply expect the old players to go away and yet still keep the same old style of gameplay you like.

This sentence dosn't make sence, since the gameplay is changing - that is what the old players complain about.

Newer players will be more focused on stuff like "yay we can fish lost items from rivers", instead of more complex systems like PvP, siege and whatnot.

So what? This is a sandbox, shall they play as they like.

The "old players" may get offensive, sure, but they are the people that - for the better or the worse - know better for this game.

(emphasis mine)

And this is the part where I think you're completely wrong, since the 'old players' can be - and are, IMHO - workplace blind when it comes to changes in the game.

[Redlaw]

Right now the game is trying to find the payment set up that attracts more players that stick around, and then in doing so are more likely to pay into the game. Better word of mouth that the game is good, more try, more stay, and then more will pay.

Yes this is an awkward moment as things change over, as people that had issues with limited game time will feel relief and do like many of them tried to do, get other people into the game, and so on. To let yourself just get lost into the game and enjoy. Happier players over all means happier devs and that means less stressful times for all. As be the update small or large more people will enjoy it. I am an older player (started at the end of world 5), I care about this game a lot, I want it to grow. This means yes while I have frothed at the mouth about some ideas that wear tested, but even then I could see options that could work better.


Buying power can come in many ways, be they power-ups, convenience items, or stat growth/limits. I am ok with a slower growth rate then a full paying player, given i likely get behind anyway lol. But at least it will knowing that we all still have some sort of fair shot to enjoy almost everything about the game.

[Amanda44]

This guy here;

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=46612#p606717

says the exact same thing as me except with different wording and ofc also offers a reward that I can't, lol, and your response is quite different.

Lots of others here are also saying the change in payment model is a bad idea and you don't berate them either ... we are all saying whatever we are saying because we care ... even those who are out-rightly abusive, though ofc that is not the way to go about it.

I know it may sound harsh to say this decision will be the end for Haven and believe me I thought long and hard about saying it but, in the end I have to be true to myself and I needed to express it. You have no idea how many times I do bite my tongue or hold back in order to still try and give my support!

You are wrong in the way you are talking to those of us that love the game enough to care, whether you accept that or not, may I remind you that you are also an old player and yet you seem to be expecting us to give your words some credit ...

Lets just hope I am totally wrong then, and if I am I will truly not mind one bit.

[flagmaster]

=========== Cap system thoughts and improvement============
The proposed system (with caps) is ok assuming that caps are dynamic.
Let's say that each month all caps get +10%.
This way the progress of hardcore players is artificially slowed down to give casuals a chance, and at the same time it's not stalled completely so each month there is a higher peak to achieve.

#pay2win is absolutely controversial with #motivate2pay.
So either you end up gaining something for what you pay, or you would just not pay at all.

IMO trial should be trial and freeloaders should be able to just try the game, not actually to play it to the fullest.
This is fair to pay devs who spend time creating the game. And this is also fair to 'cripple' freeloaders compared to people who spent their money and supported game development.
This way current system is fair, cap system is fair and speeded up progress is fair.

============LP gain speed thoughts===============
Done in lots and lots of games
Works well
Freeloaders, cheapskates and hobos gonna whine.
Nobody shd care about their opinion because they give nothing to the game progress(neither time nor money).
You either have a job and less time to play or you have no job and lots of time. So a little balance between time and money is a great thing.

============LP gain speed improvement===============
I't easy to hit a progress speed limit when your study window is full of best curios you can get.
So I'd suggest that free players have both LP of curio cut down, but also time to learn cut down. This way they can achieve same LP/hour as sub players but need to craft 2 times more curios, meaning spend more time actually playing.

===========Opportunity to get a sub without paying money==============
IMO devs can award players who are useful to community and to the game with a sub tokens.
Good guide writers (like Sevenless) or game event creators (like LadyGoo), nice forum stories writers (3 ladies and a wagon dont remember the name) spend a lot of their personal time doing things which make game experience better. And attract people as a result
Also, there are tasks in game development which can be outsourced and awarded with sub token if completed well.
Like
* Drawing animal, items, buildings etc textures
* Finding and providing detailed descriptions to bugs
* Writing the textual game content
* Even some decent client modifications (fps boost without reducing graphics, convenient controls, memory optimization)

Also, referral system may work out somehow, although has to be well thought to avoid abuse
Easiest - for each 6 months of subs purchased by personal invitation the inviter gains 1 month free sub.

[lachlaan]

@Granger : The infinite stat grind doesn't directly tie into how easy it is for titans or old players to murder the hell out of newbies and casuals.

That is a result of how the combat, siege, raiding systems are tweaked. Jorb and Loftar could easily make stats only count up to 100 towards combat effectiveness and anything beyond be only for the sake of qualitative progress. The point is to not depend something change or not change to get a result, but rather find all variables that play into it and see which ones do need changing. If you want combat and all the crime stuff changed, suggest that. The baseline idea is "I want casuals to feel safer", not "I want casuals to effortlessly become just as strong as hardcores". Just ... "It would be nice to have less harsh consequences for losing to no-lifers".

Now in order to make both the noob feel safe and the raider feel rewarded, I couldn't say what exactly should be done. The world's wealth is player generated, so not allowing it to be acquired via raiding means there's always going to be a conflict of interest between defending one person's assets and another's will to take said assets. Spawning new riches for successfully raiding would then create bot farms that mean people would essentially raid themselves so treasure pops out of thin air.

The rewards from combat i'd say would be two-fold.. a) the experience itself, as in a fun combat system would be a reward to just play with
b) anything you can loot off a defeated foe

the combat system as it is just doesn't appeal to me. if i could avoid it i'd not use it for fun. It'd be like playing extra boring chess that is just a chore put in place to create artificial effort before defeating someone and killing them. If it got changed to something fun to experience for the sake of it, people might not be as bothered if b) gets nerfed into the ground, and loot acquired becomes less of a thing. Perhaps winning a fight could offer other rewards.

The siege system again isn't there for the fun of it, nor for the sake of letting conflict unravel, but seems it's mostly for e-peen measurement and cause it's the only thing to do for raiders later on. We essentially have old-world war vets, and I think the only way to manage their need for combat is to give them a combatative sport. Less destructive, more fun, and it'll hopefully quell the bloodlust. Then the casuals could lose and not be automatically murdered for losing a fight out in the open.

[Carebear]

Let me start with the TLDNR - if you want my money....
Make sure I can experience the entire game with little/no restriction - I will pay for that
Let me buy things that help me in game - I will pay for that.

...now for my ramblings

Regardless of what you call it (pay2win, pay2play, etc) there are some fundamental things that need to be balanced.

Some people want to be able to play for free.
Some people want to play with no restrictions and are willing to pay for it.
Some people will pay for eye-candy (no in-game impact other than looking sexay)
Some people will pay for things that do impact gameplay (pay2win).

Personally I am willing to pay, an annual sub was no question for me. But I will not spend one cent on eye-candy. Rather than suggest "the best way" let me just toss out what you could do to get more money from me beyond my annual subs. (or get me to renew)

1) Server needs to last a while (say a year). This reset after 5 months feels too early to me, so if the altar is going to be a thing going forward it would be nice to be open about how soon we might see the next server vanish. Honestly not interested in 6 month worlds.

2) I dont want to many restrictions - I want to be able to max things. 50/125/200 is a good first pass, but if the server is going to last the upper limit for subs has to be higher OR you need to rebalance things to match the new limitations. I am at 275 farming and 200 on crops even with the Q bugs, so 200 is going to be hit very early if these worlds are going to last.

3) I will pay for items that reduce grind, so more inventory, faster harvesting, better yield, less stamina drain. Make them only usable for the world you buy them in, let people kill me and take them. (i.e. I will buy items that help me in game - not eye-candy)

4) Change acccounts to have one character only. People are going to do alts regardless, but I think the ability to have N max characters becaused I sub an account is a bit much. Pay-per-character not account. (i.e. I will sub multiple accounts)

I am struggling with the idea of restarting at this stage. People are going to be into the game for a couple weeks then pop will drop again. Smaller map mean more confict. I think you should have experimented a bit more with features before a reset but whats done is done.

Best of luck.

[shubla]

Some people want to be able to play for free.
Some people want to play with no restrictions and are willing to pay for it.
Some people will pay for eye-candy (no in-game impact other than looking sexay)
Some people will pay for things that do impact gameplay (pay2win).

This is the problem.
Somone will always be unhappy about payment model.
Devs only need to find one that gives them biggest amount of moneywith least lost players.

[Kalacia]

=========== Cap system thoughts and improvement============
The proposed system (with caps) is ok assuming that caps are dynamic.
Let's say that each month all caps get +10%.

I like this idea, it makes me happy . I am sad that i didn't think of it