Credo's for the non Lemmings

[Vigilance]

I don't know, Massa, I strongly enjoy discussing the depths with Thiorin after I deliver a wishbone to him, after digging four mineholes to reach the fucker. Or what about the engaging quest of "Study a dark effigy?"

[Ardennesss]

Credo quest requirements should scale with the bonuses that credo gives. It's completely illogical that learning how to become a "fisherman" gets exponentially harder just because you learned how to do other stuff first.

Quests should scale based on the prerequisite number of credos that credo requires, and nothing more. For example, getting Cave Hermit would be Fisherman 10 quests, Forager 10 quests, Mystic 30 quests, Quarryman 20 quests, miner 30 quests, cave hermit 60 quests. At this point, should you choose to go down another path as well, the same system is used.

Acquiring every credo in the game would still require 570 quests, which is by no means a small task - especially given the number of quests you'll have to drop and get something different.

[neeco]

It's completely illogical that learning how to become a "fisherman" gets exponentially harder just because you learned how to do other stuff first.

This is true. I would argue though that the intent of credos are to be something that you are constantly working towards getting throughout the lifespan of the world. Making them easier and not scaling in difficulty just leads to an early-game rush to grab all the ones you need rather than what I think it was intended to be: a late-game activity.

I do agree that the death mechanic needs to be adjusted or removed though. With it in place you will still have the early game rush the get all the needed credos with lots of suicides to reset the scaling difficulty.

[Jalpha]

This whole phenomenon of instant gratification in video games is really giving me a bad vibe...

It's not just video games man, it's a global phenomenon intersecting with every facet of society.

*shuffles away

[neeco]

It's not just video games man, it's a global phenomenon intersecting with every facet of society.

Everything, all the time

[Massa]

With that in mind, working for 6 months, or even a year, to achieve a character with all the credos doesn't seem that insane.

yes it does

Don't ever go play EVE, then. Sure, you can dive in and be useful in PvP in a week or two (even first day), but if you want to contribute with the Big Guns or be something of a power house, you're looking at least six months to a year development. The biggest ships are 18 months just to be able to pilot, let alone talk about being a proficient pilot.

This whole phenomenon of instant gratification in video games is really giving me a bad vibe...

instant

not wanting to spend 6 months to chop a tree faster

instant

not wanting to spend 18 months to potentially find twice as many tiny useless shit gems in a game only 100 people concurrently play

instant

yeah fuck that, that's not "instant gratification", take it back a little bud

[Vigilance]

what do you mean massa these credos are gamechanging, you don't like investing a year in to your character to have a better exp:kindle ratio?

[MagicManICT]

yeah fuck that, that's not "instant gratification", take it back a little bud

I probably did go a bit too far, but I'd like to see a game progress over time, not be another WoW style* "grind to max level - 10" in under 40 hours of game time (and get those 10 newest levels in 20-30 more hours). I know there's some sort of happy medium in there, but every other game I pick up that is online multiplayer is rush to the end, MAYBE explore some after. To me, Haven is an exploration game and it's a part of the development process, not an afterthought, so it should be a slow progression.


*as a complete aside, I have played more than a few of those F2P MMOs that cut your xp gains in half or less unless you do post up subscription money. They're so boringly slow to even get out of the early levels, I usually give up before halfway through level progression, and EQ at release was my first major MMO. (Well, about six months after, but well before the first expansion.) There were quests in that game you had to camp a specific spot (and likely fight someone over it) for half a day to get some specific drop to finish a quest. Let's not forget to mention the huge xp penalty. A bad night could wipe out a week's worth of xp grinding. (I'll note it's not as bad as here where a bad night could wipe out a month's worth of grinding... or more.)

[Lunarius_Haberdash]

Credo quest requirements should scale with the bonuses that credo gives. It's completely illogical that learning how to become a "fisherman" gets exponentially harder just because you learned how to do other stuff first.

Quests should scale based on the prerequisite number of credos that credo requires, and nothing more. For example, getting Cave Hermit would be Fisherman 10 quests, Forager 10 quests, Mystic 30 quests, Quarryman 20 quests, miner 30 quests, cave hermit 60 quests. At this point, should you choose to go down another path as well, the same system is used.

Acquiring every credo in the game would still require 570 quests, which is by no means a small task - especially given the number of quests you'll have to drop and get something different.

^ This, which is pretty much what I suggested earlier in (I believe) this thread.

[pppp]

What about following scheme:
- death takes away one credo, random or last one,
- death resets quest amount to 10
- amount of quests per credo is increased by 5 per credo (rather than by 10)

The current suicide express requires flat cost of 10 quests per credo plus redoing newbie quests after every death and regaining some skills and stats to be able to progress, I'd say time cost of char rebuilding may be equivalent to 2 quests on average.
The total costs of doing credos with no suicides is 1900 quests (with Scholar) and that makes 100 quests per credo on average.

With the scheme I am suggesting the cost of a single credo would be:
10+15=25 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 2 credos (one credo to progress and one to lose)
(10+15+20)/2=22.5 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 3 credos (two credos to progress and one to lose)
(10+15+20+25)/3=23.3 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 4 credos (three credos to progress and one to lose)
(10+15+20+25+30)/4=25 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 5 credos (four credos to progress and one to lose)
(10+15+20+25+30+35)/5=27 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 6 credos (five credos to progress and one to lose)
....
(10+15+20+25+30+35+40+45+50+55+60)/10=38.5 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 11 credos (10 credos to progress and one to lose)
....
(10+15+20+...+100)/19=55 quests per credo, assuming no suicides

after adding char rebuilding cost estimate it is:
25+2=27 when suiciding every 2 credos
22.5+2/2=23 when suiciding every 3 credos
23.3+2/3=24 when suiciding every 4 credos
25+2/4=25.5 when suiciding every 5 credos
27+2/5=27.4 when suiciding every 6 credos

So in this scheme the average cost of doing credo is almost flat, up to doing 6 credos per one hearthling life and is significantly higher than it is currently when suiciding after every credo, and is also significantly lower than it is currently when doing credos with no suicides.

There are two possible modification to this scheme both of which add cost but do not significantly increase optimal amount of credos per life.

1. Adding 5:

25+10=35
22.5+15/2=30
23.3+20/3=30
25+25/4=31.25
27+30/5=33
...
27.4+5.5=32.9
...
55+5=60

and 10:

25+20=45
22.5+30/2=37.5
23.3+40/3=36.6
25+50/4=37.5
27+60/5=39
...
27.4+11=38.4
...
55+10=65

quests to base cost will move optimum slightly up while significantly increasing overall cost.

2. Taking away 2 credos per death will result in:
10+15+20=45 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 3 credos (one credo to progress and 2 to lose)
(10+15+20+25)/2=35 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 4 credos (2 credos to progress and 2 to lose)
(10+15+20+25+30)/3=3.33 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 5 credos (3 credos to progress and 2 to lose)
(10+15+20+25+30+35)/4=33.75 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 6 credos (4 credos to progress and 2 to lose)
(10+15+20+25+30+35+40)/5=35 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 7 credos (5 credos to progress and 2 to lose)
....
(10+15+20+25+30+35+40+45+50+55+60+65)/10=45 quests per credo, assuming suicide every 12 credos (10 credos to progress and 2 to lose)
....
(10+15+20+...+100)/19=55 quests per credo, assuming no suicides

and with a lot o pain ofc.