RFC: Metal spiraling

[Mafious]

You just argued the the whole point of Haven is raising numbers and that the game is, apart from that, completely boring.
Maybe http://progressquest.com/ is a better game for you?

I postulate that there are plenty that could find fun in actual competition (be it PvP, who grows the best quality pumpkin or whatever), but as of the current system just don't see a point in trying as they, on average, have a life and because of that have lost before they even started. But with the ceiling thingy one could play normally and while doing that prepare for the holidays (or a long weekend with some days off) to then feast up into the competitive range to play with the big boys at eye level for a little while, to then return back to quieter life (that is more compatible with having a RL one) till the opportunity to party comes up again.

So no, I don't share your view. Quite the opposit, I see plenty (more than now) opportunity for fun in the numbers stalling around a reasonable height.
Especially when done in a way that denies mass-production of alts, by removing the ability to hibernate them for an indefinite amount of time.

i wouldn't be against it if a reasonable "floor" can be found below wich the atributes, qualites and such decay no longer. i would hate to get back after a few months (because life got i the way) and not only have to rebuild my base but also rebuild my character because it can no longer kill a bear or something like that.

[Granger]

i wouldn't be against it if a reasonable "floor" can be found below wich the atributes, qualites and such decay no longer. i would hate to get back after a few months (because life got i the way) and not only have to rebuild my base but also rebuild my character because it can no longer kill a bear or something like that.

Yes, no, kind-of.

While I agree with your view to some point... that base would need to be low enough to make hibernation of alts unfeasible.
The character would still have the skills and especially benefits from credos (which give abilities), so rebuilding should be way quicker than a restart with a fresh one. Thus I think there shouldn't be a base above a fresh character (beyond increases gained through credos).

But that would be more of an discussion for the A Plea for Decay (Character) topic, I just brought that up here to make the point that the problems Haven has with qualities are not singular events like 'metal spiraling running away' but a systematic one: the unbound characters lead to the rest also being unboud, which then leads to a world out of balance which turns, for a good part of what it had to offer at the beginning, into being completely irrelevant.

But as we're used to completely broken FEP,symbel,cha (and whatnot) and insane qualities it's IMHO futile trying to discuss this with numbers, as anyone then would compare these with the development speed they're used to (from said broken mechanics) and we would only drown with 'sh1t suggestion, granger sucks, I can reach that level within a week' comments that, through fully succeeding in completely missing the point, would make the much needed clear headed discussion about these things impossible.

Increasing metal quality via jumping through hoops by (say) 25% in total could be tolerable for the world, given the raw ore qualities are within reason.
The current multiple orders of magnitude definitively are not.

I think instead of treating symptoms we should work on a solution to the underlying cause: the boundless character growth that initially causes these issues.

[Justforthis]

Perhaps a better way of changing it would be by giving metalworkers some method by which they can refine metal with a large cost of materials into a higher quality than what the ore starts as, while removing the randomness from it. Sort of how with farming and enough time you can slowly grow your crops up to whatever your skillcap is. It could maybe take the form of forging 5 iron bars into one, that gains a bonus of 10% of your sqrt(smithing*str) each forging?

+1

[LostJustice]

Another deceptive stat cap idea by Granger that is from a necro thread.

Spiral and play the game Granger before actually making varied assumptions like this because from actually doing the spiral it doesn’t make sense for what you are imposing. And you offer decay and say I can bring it as high as I want now and here’s the two problems with that since you don’t seem to understand the concept of a cap or the effect of the decay. Situation One is that the decay doesn’t happen till a certain event or point aka like after inactivity on the anvil. At this point it will be infinite still and we are still in the same situation because people would make sure to reset inactivity timers or what ever to prevent the event and keep spiraling. Situation two it is a hard decay aka it starts decaying after usage or after it being made almost immediately at some fixed rate. This is practically a cap. I don’t care how much you say it isn’t, it bluntly is a cap. At some point that decay is going to be faster than what I can pump out and what I can pump out will be higher than what most hermits can access and to be honest this would probably make it worse off for them since they don’t have the resources I have access to since it would require much more materials just to maintain which again defeats the purpose.

And my last point and hence why I think you should actually really consider playing hafen for what it is, is that there is a large community here, (probably more than half of the remaining players that stick through this world from beginning to end) that their goal is to have the highest quality and compete in a quality race or in some part of it. And this isn’t just a numbers game like you pointed out. It also involves getting efficient logistics, working together as a group of people or figuring out a way to work by yourself, and gathering and using the required materials effectively to raise the quality. If you think it is just some numbers game on an anvil then you might as well go play that game linked.

And in every thread you bring up this decay argument. And every time you bring it up, you keep making more and more changes to this proposed system to make it fit and work. Every time someone brings up what is wrong with it, you propose adding another mechanic on it to fix it. Have you just ever thought that the idea simply just doesn't work and you keep trying to force a mechanic?

Right, I think I get what you're saying.

In a way, I guess you can look at it as a level-cap, but a "soft" kind of one; one that can be negotiated with, as Jorb likes to put it. I don't necessarily hate the idea of a level-cap that doesn't necessarily mean that you're "done" with a character just because you've reached it. But it's still a level cap.

[LostJustice]

Farming trees are affected and actually this isn't entirely true. You can boost crops with herb tables. Certain ones at least.

Trees aren't the same as food crops. Food crops you have to stick in the ground and just wait. Trees are affected by clay, saws, string, soil... it's a list of things that boost tree quality. And other than grains, what other way is there to boost quality of your crops beyond the average "+2"? If it's later in the world and you can get a high quality herbalist table, you can dry WWW for a chance at better seeds, but then you're as likely to be able to buy or scavenge better seeds than what you could dry.

I would agree but it essentially just planting. Only difference here is what you noted, is that they are dictated by the tools in some way but only reason why I disagree is because flax goes into the herb table directly and that alone would just raise this like any crop, only difference is that it is maintaining a ratio with quality of tools which is a maintained ratio with flax or what ever base resources.

And for drying, things like wheat and barely can made higher because people don't focus these. If you farmed them like carrots or flax then no this mechanic would be pointless but since these types of crops usually only go into food then only bulk matters rather than relentless quality gaining.

[Granger]

And in every thread you bring up this decay argument. And every time you bring it up, you keep making more and more changes to this proposed system to make it fit and work. Every time someone brings up what is wrong with it, you propose adding another mechanic on it to fix it.

Certainly, because I actually read what others write, think about their arguments, project what consequences they would have and adjust the suggestion accordingly when they bring up point why my suggestion fails the goal of having a world that isn't inevitably consumed by the cancer (yes, the fancy word that scientists gave to describe something that dosn't stop growing inside a host till it's failing and dies) that is the current endless growth of numbers.

So yes, that's what I do: make a suggestion, get feedback, improve it, repeat - and staying honest about it while doing that.

Might be a novel concept for someone who seems to be following the footsteps of the Reichspropagandaleiter, like you do by endlessly repeating that made up shit about me not playing the game and having no clue.

So please fuck off with the nonsense you spill about me and enter a reasonable discussion by making a convincing argument why the 100 current concurrent users (your we're used to how that always worked so it has to stay that way group as you claim, and their bots as I guess) are a good reason to keep sticking to mechanics that relieably kill off the interest of the majority of users within 3~4 months (as can be seen here) and discourage busloads of people from starting to play unless there is a world reset (which can be seen here).

[MagicManICT]

And for drying, things like wheat and barely can made higher because people don't focus these. If you farmed them like carrots or flax then no this mechanic would be pointless but since these types of crops usually only go into food then only bulk matters rather than relentless quality gaining.

The difference, in my experience, between my grains and herbalist table are usually minimal, so it's not an often used trick. I have used it early world when I had a good saw and got a q50+ table and could only find q10 seeds for an early boost (given how slow they are to grow compared to carrots.) And the other reason is you have so many things to boost food quality that you're right, what's the quality of the grain matter? Especially when you're talking only a small percent increase in the resulting FEPs.

discourage busloads of people from starting to play unless there is a world reset (which can be seen here).

I tend to ignore this as bullshit excuses as if that was the reason, new people wouldn't start playing games like EVE since it's been out nearly 16 years. Some of the vets just got used to seeing a new world every 8 or so months, and it became a mantra--chant it enough and the devs will listen or something like that.

[Ysh]

discourage busloads of people from starting to play unless there is a world reset (which can be seen here).

I tend to ignore this as bullshit excuses as if that was the reason, new people wouldn't start playing games like EVE since it's been out nearly 16 years. Some of the vets just got used to seeing a new world every 8 or so months, and it became a mantra--chant it enough and the devs will listen or something like that.

Critical difference between this game and EVE is that in EVE it is possible to ''catch up'' to veteran players. Yes, they will always have more total SP than you, but you can only use SP that is related to ship you are flying. For low tier ships you can fly them optimally after some months or some thing like this (I have not play EVE in long time). And by optimally I mean as well as any veteran player in game, as far as game mechanic is concerned. Veteran player will have more ship available to him that he can fly optimally, but this do not make him mathematically stronger than new player since he can only fly a single ship at one time.

Compare this to scenario in Haven where if a veteran has been playing optimally since beginning of world, it is not possible to catch up to him on your character. Sure, you can mitigate this by doing thing like buying other veteran character or buying high level item from other veteran player, but it is not possible to do it by your own bootstraps like can be done in EVE. And these veteran character will be mathematically stronger than your character, forever, as long as they will continue to play optimally. It will be like EVE if total SP gives you percentage buff to all attributes base on how much you have.

[Agame]

Sorry, Granger.
I like playing a hermit. Therefore, I tend to remain behind specialized players, bot masters and others.
BUT. There must be some reward for people playing more time than me. No matter if I am a late starter or a hermit or simply have only 10 hours a week to spend playing, I should never compare to a guy that never wandered around to see the world, he just "worked" 10 hours a day for those numbers you all talk about and only left his base when he needed to find a better node.

And if the difference is I can use q 100 and he can use q 120, he will quit. He will go play WoW or MC or anything else where you do not loose what you gained just because some time passed. As long as the difference is in 6 months I get into the good quality items (easy living) while the no-lifer gets outside of values used for balancing and does things unexpected for game developers, I get a little reward for my little work, he gets a huge reward for his huge time and effort and maybe even money invested and all is fair.

You call achieving numbers the game is not prepared for a cancer. As long as all is done legit, I have to disagree.

Please, everyone, beware of "entitled casuals" and their "I play the same game as you, I must have in game what you have in game. Me being dumb and playing it wrong or me investing less than 10% of what you invest in terms of time, focus and money does not matter at all." doctrine. That is not a cancer, but it is simply unfair.

[waga]

except you can catch up in HnH , I did after 6-12 months breaks , not a pvp char but industry. (I would argue it's a lot harder).
Yes I no life'd hardcore for 3 months , yes I burnout , but that's how I always played hnh.
Sure I know people , I didn't started from scratch , but it's normal a single noob can't compete.

I'm tired of reading this bullshit argument over and over.
Also I would love some people to realize that one of the chore mechanics of these kind of game is "infinite growth".
See how popular are incremental games , HnH is , in a sense , an incremental game.