Satiations, global pools, hunger and how it's affected trade

[Sevenless]

Killing someone out of the game is very different than killing someone in the game. Complete derail and it's been talked to death so I'm going to leave it at that.

[bmjclark]

I'm pretty sure the devs have made it clear that this isn't and will never be a PVE only game. If they intend to keep things that way, they need to fix PVP. It's an important part of the game.

It is a pvp game, but the problem is there won't be a playerbase left to pvp if you make siege something that's easy enough that it happens often. The game has literally never had proper siege and there's always been pvp anyways. And the fact of the matter is, even if you're in a war in this game, the actual fights make up like 5% of it. And it has always been this way. Most of your time is still spent dealing with industry or building your character.

That being said, this really isn't what this thread is about. We can make another thread if we want to get into this again (I dont, and im aware i played a big part of derailing it ).

[MagicManICT]

Also one could introduce regional Products. For instance a certain cheese and a certain wine from a region with some tweaks in its stats.

There is a game, "A Tale in the Desert," that makes very good use of this. The map can get very granular if you're looking for something specific. Just moving a couple of unit coordinates in a direction is enough to completely change things like wine and beer brewing. Because a variety of wine and beers are needed to meet certain qualification levels in the game, there is usually a huge market in trading them. (The system gets way more complex than I'm even hinting at here going into grape genomics, too.)

I can think of other games that make strong use of this, too, like a certain Pirate one that many of our player base has played in the past. Bulk transportation of goods is much easier in that game, too.

[Ants]

I think a good solution would be to add more valuable things that noobs could provide. Grey clay was a good one last world, since it is at least mildly annoying to bot and huge quantities of it were required for potters clay spiraling. The potter clay nerf kindof gets rid of this, as people will only use top q grey clay for potters now, and I'm not super happy about that change.

Also road changes have totally fucked trade for things that are not super valuable. It is just not worth the travel time for insignificant nab stuff, and transporting bulk goods isn't really feasible, so noone bothers. Maybe there will be a bit more trade when a lot of ppl have 1000+ will, but nabs will never get that much will, so they kinda get fucked especially hard.

I couldn't have put it any better. Even silk is hard to sell to people on other continents unless you have a full stockpile because no one wants to make the trip. Travel fucked trade pretty hard and didn't really improve gameplay.

Also one could introduce regional Products. For instance a certain cheese and a certain wine from a region with some tweaks in its stats.

There is a game, "A Tale in the Desert," that makes very good use of this. The map can get very granular if you're looking for something specific. Just moving a couple of unit coordinates in a direction is enough to completely change things like wine and beer brewing. Because a variety of wine and beers are needed to meet certain qualification levels in the game, there is usually a huge market in trading them. (The system gets way more complex than I'm even hinting at here going into grape genomics, too.)

I can think of other games that make strong use of this, too, like a certain Pirate one that many of our player base has played in the past. Bulk transportation of goods is much easier in that game, too.

Regional products would be a great addition and would give people a reason to settle in different parts of the world. Right now I feel like everybody who's anybody is just going to congregate around the Wal-Mart.

[Aceb]

Too small player base for regional products, especially with this kind of travel. Not to say if any of those "regional" products will be too OP, everybody gonna have alt base just for it probably.

[Ants]

Too small player base for regional products, especially with this kind of travel. Not to say if any of those "regional" products will be too OP, everybody gonna have alt base just for it probably.

Alt bases wouldn't necessarily kill the demand for the product. People botted cheese and pepper last world, they still wanted to buy some.

[Aceb]

Too small player base for regional products, especially with this kind of travel. Not to say if any of those "regional" products will be too OP, everybody gonna have alt base just for it probably.

Alt bases wouldn't necessarily kill the demand for the product. People botted cheese and pepper last world, they still wanted to buy some.

True but then world could be littered with claims that only purpouse would be creating the product, giving everyone else in area false hope of activity. When I traveled W10 I didn't see much of those farms, but if the regional products would kick in...

[shubla]

So solution is to make some things so good that even if you bot them, you would still buy them.
(like pearls in legacy, or pepper last world?)

[Ants]

Too small player base for regional products, especially with this kind of travel. Not to say if any of those "regional" products will be too OP, everybody gonna have alt base just for it probably.

Alt bases wouldn't necessarily kill the demand for the product. People botted cheese and pepper last world, they still wanted to buy some.

True but then world could be littered with claims that only purpouse would be creating the product, giving everyone else in area false hope of activity. When I traveled W10 I didn't see much of those farms, but if the regional products would kick in...

-Make a special skill or credo required to gain access to the recipes for regional products
-Force people with the skill or credo to occasionally wander outside their walls to get the materials to create regional products. Maybe crafting them would require some forageable only visible to those with the skill/credo? That way, alts could be killed even if the siege system isn't fixed.

That should stop people from using noob alts to farm massive amounts of them. People would need to risk characters with some development to make regional products.

[Kaios]

Also one could introduce regional Products. For instance a certain cheese and a certain wine from a region with some tweaks in its stats

There are already regional products this world in some sense, such as certain biomes only appearing on some of the continents causing the foragables and trees specific to them to be native only to those areas. This is however easily circumvented once a player obtains the first seed/plant they need so in my opinion does not do a very effective job at creating a regional product. Probably there's some advantage to growing X flora in Y location but I doubt it is significant enough to defeat the bot army or if it were might only be abused in that regard. Ores appear to differ around the continents as well, for example I never found peacock ore in my area at all while some at other continents found it easily on L1.

Overall though I would agree that none of those actually encourage much regional trade in the short-term, perhaps over the long-term however there will be some greater impact with such things as a lack of specific ores amongst the continents or faster growing bough tree at SW side compared to NE side.

One might argue that the ability to kill players and factions out of the game completely isn't exactly healthy for longterm population that we seem to be aiming for.

I don't know, I remember it being quite fun to track down a criminal's vault and siege inside for the loot and summons. Of course, this was also during a time when players had to be more careful about where their scents led back to due to brick bashing (and even simply pali bashing later on) and so created hearth vaults to elude suspicion (as well as for storing stolen goods or bodies) until scents expired or until someone decided they wanted vengeance. Which then encouraged siege, which then encouraged players taking out very high risk characters, which then encouraged skirmishes.

I'm not really sure what could be done now to encourage more of that again, I don't think I want to see any hand bashing of walls make a return though. But perhaps there should be some greater incentive to bring out characters that an individual or group would not normally risk. While losing a character does indeed suck, it's also a boon to trade if someone else profits because you had to re-purchase gear or food or curios but there definitely needs to be more goods in general worth trading for that to even be viable.

Road nerfs kills trading. You cant have a healthy trade environment and no way to communicate and connect in a reasonable fashion.

I liked when wine had weariness reduction it gave high q wine a useful purpose for everyone and made traveling around tolerable.

I'm more dissapointed in the hunger system changes than anything. Last world the meta was all about 1 tapping your FEP bar -- which encouraged heavy use of pepper and quality food. If a mid tier player still had a decent set up going he could sell both. Pepper was in heavy demand, and weaker food could be carried by your own high quality pepper if need be.

Now with satiations being a big deal and time gates exist in feasting this one tap meta is going to be as strong as ever before. I don't want to eat the food anyone else produces. Quite simply its lower quality -- which means I have to eat more of it and satiate myself even harder. All I want is the highest quality food which I need to produce myself. Fortunately since the amount of food I need is much lower I'm not spending my day anymore shuffling around 160 to 240 racks of cheese a day like I did last world.

As a player that generally tends to progress mostly on one character and also as someone who enjoys mining but expends a ton of energy doing so, I really dislike how this system forces me in to feeding on grasshoppers for a week at a time if I want to keep my hunger level down to something reasonable just so I can catch my stats up a bit. Otherwise I'm basically stuffing myself with whatever I can get my hands on for energy because my satiations and hunger level end up fucked anyways. And why is there so much strength in everything.

There also remains a lack of stuff in general underground to make food from, cave slime can make some pretty nice food but it's an ingredient and not something one could eat directly while mining. Cave louse are plentiful but dangerous to fight without water/minehole/pali around so not really ideal when you're out mining. Roast boreworm fills 500 energy but they seem to be quite rare and I think also bugged because I've seen them spawn on deep water multiple times. Rats pop up more often on the surface than they do underground, centipedes are even more rare. Trolls...

I could haul a grinder around and make cavedogs if bats had any intestines.