Community: The next world should be made permanent

[LadyGoo]

Eternal uncapped stat grind? No thanks.

No need for my farms, cows and etc. after I've reached the stats caps? The trade dying because people do not need the stuff for their character grind? Industry stopping, since everything in this game rotates around the stats? No, thanks as well.
I've suggested a soft-cap for the stats, when you find it much harder and resourseful to grind after reaching certain limit. Say, you'd need only 2 honeybuns for 1 agi until you've reached 300, now you'd need 6 to reach 350, 12 for 400, 24 for 450 and etc. The stats difference between the advanced players and the newbies will not be that crucial after the soft-cap point.

Even with a cap of 330 that still leaves a lot of quality grinding in almost everything other than perhaps carrots which raise the fastest.

Forestry? No, it has stopped as soon as everyone reached q 100 trees.
Metals? No, as soon as you will finish your best coal node. Plants? They barely mean anything in this game. Animals? Only the horse stat grind means something. The rest of the cattle you can just mass breed regardless of their qualities.

You can still expand your village further, you can still create a larger metal production area using resources you already have or are able to acquire

What is the reason for this if what you already have is enough for making stat-capped characters?

Same thing goes for any public market scenario, once again yes players usually trade because they want to trade for something better quality than what they currently have but this does not mean all trades are purely quality related.

Non-quality trades barely make 10-20% of the market trades. Casuals won't buy someone's dough, since they can make it by themselves. They will trade only for the higher quality items. Especially with the travel being so hard.

[Granger]

Quality decay on items and objects when used?

[ekzarh]

I am not stating that stat-cap is needed for the permanent world.
And I am not stating that it is the only solution.
But there are lots of games which are (or were) hardcore and at the same had stat-caps.
But the core concern of players is "what do I do after I reach the stat cap?"

No need for my farms, cows and etc. after I've reached the stats caps? The trade dying because people do not need the stuff for their character grind? Industry stopping, since everything in this game rotates around the stats? No, thanks as well.
I've suggested a soft-cap for the stats, when you find it much harder and resourseful to grind after reaching certain limit. Say, you'd need only 2 honeybuns for 1 agi until you've reached 300, now you'd need 6 to reach 350, 12 for 400, 24 for 450 and etc. The stats difference between the advanced players and the newbies will not be that crucial after the soft-cap point.

This one I like and I've also suggested that - the sort of 'glass ceiling'. But I still have some doubts about possibility to reach 'permanent world' this way. On the other hand - it could make wipe cycles once in 3-4 years instead of 0,5-1. And it is long enough to quit any game.

Forestry? No, it has stopped as soon as everyone reached q 100 trees.
Metals? No, as soon as you will finish your best coal node. Plants? They barely mean anything in this game. Animals? Only the horse stat grind means something. The rest of the cattle you can just mass breed regardless of their qualities.

There has to be something that players could grind for months after reaching some level of power. If we look into classic MMORPGs - it is mostly some epic quests, world bosses, unique gear. In case of HnH this can also be used as char sink and/or item sink. This motivates trade and gives new peaks to achieve for powergamers.
These thingies are normally come as expansion packs. Something big, taking a 2-3 month for 'learn about it, find it, understand the mechanics, PVP for it, kill it once, make stable grind for it'. Meanwhile devs prepare new expansion pack.

What is the reason for this if what you already have is enough for making stat-capped characters?

In normal MMOs reaching top level is just a very beginning of the game =)

Non-quality trades barely make 10-20% of the market trades. Casuals won't buy someone's dough, since they can make it by themselves. They will trade only for the higher quality items. Especially with the travel being so hard.

In the permanent world high-tier production facilities should work slower and be harder to grow extensively as much as people want. Probably it could be shaped in a way, when it is more reasonable for hermits to specialize and trade than making all-rounder char or bunch of alts.
Professions (if implemented properly with HnH specifics taken into account) could do that.

So here's my opinion (I'l repeat lots of points from the thread)
* Permanent world is a good idea and a good goal to reach.
* Game is not there yet - making world permanent now would get to the same 50-100 online as always in 6-9 months.
* Core mechanics - siege, combat, quests, exp and stat gain, energy and hunger should be finalized and as balanced as possible. Drastic changes to that decrease population often.
* Infinite stat and lp grind should be either capped (dislike a bit) or nerfed heavily on higher stats(may not be enough =( ). - Noone wants to play when he 100% knows that he can never reach the top.
* Powergamers need things to do after becoming strong enough. Or instead of infinite stat raise. Epic quests, monsters, equipment coming out regularily from content packs
* Death should become more probable. As of now, after you learn the basics it is nearly impossible to die except for PVP. After you learn all things - you can recover after death more or less fine. Diseases, natural disasters, empowered versions of animals - I dunno. But there should be more risk. Permadeath which never happens is boring.
* More motivations for PVP. As of now, it is easier to trade items or craft them than to raid for them.Unique, very limited in amount monsters/items, nodes (info about which can't be hidden) could do.
* More item sinks . There is a rather long list of things to do for powerplayer. Craft base, hidden vault, raider chars hearthvault, few L5 mines - about 10-20 rings of bwall in total. But after that you are limited to infinite stat raise. And that is doable even by 2 'average' players in 3-4 months. I would think about quest having a price in items.
* Botting prevention. I doubt this is possible. But that would equalize things a lot. And slow down 24*7*10 windows progress. So I had to write it.

[boreial]

personally, I would like to see a base attribute stat cap re-implemented, lets face it, even semi realistically a person can only get to be so strong, or so smart, it is not like they can become infinitely so.

This would put the focus on continually raising ability stats, and even those should have a limit. Again, skills or abilities are something that DO have limits.

ANd no, that does not mean that everyone will have the same quality of gear because there is still the fact that you have to have access to top quality materials. NOT everybody does, I certainly don't.

[Teleskop]

I think permament worlds would have a change to exist if characters would age

[Jesus_Smith_Nandez]

this thread is just a bunch of people echo-ing the same super general idealist ideas back and forth at each other. Might as well make a thread titled "make the game better."

[LadyGoo]

In normal MMOs reaching top level is just a very beginning of the game =)

But in the normal MMO people can play without crafting anything or having an industry. In hafen both industry, agriculture, politics and etc. rotate around the character building and making your way to get better stuff, gear and etc.

In the permanent world high-tier production facilities should work slower and be harder to grow extensively as much as people want. Probably it could be shaped in a way, when it is more reasonable for hermits to specialize and trade than making all-rounder char or bunch of alts.

I have written about specializations on 1-2 items sales and world economics in my earlier threads. It would be possible without the specializations, if the trade would be made easier than it is now. Jorb and Loftar should look at it in a more ambitious way, rather than having only trading center, only one currency for 2 worlds now and think that everything is perfect as it is. If the barterstands would be fixed and the charterstones affordability and travel weariness, and need to visit it issues would be addressed, there would be possibility for people to specialize and make living only by 1 product. The market bloomed once the charterstones were implemented in the end of W8. It was far more active and had more currency within the last 1.5 months pre-wipe. We were able to hold events because we were sure that our audience, mostly casual, would be able to attend the event.
Trade is something very basic that anyone could do. Yet it gives so much more in terms of socialization, building connections, industry development, events and etc.

Death should become more probable. As of now, after you learn the basics it is nearly impossible to die except for PVP. After you learn all things - you can recover after death more or less fine. Diseases, natural disasters, empowered versions of animals - I dunno. But there should be more risk. Permadeath which never happens is boring.

The issue with permadeath is that it makes people quit, if they've invested a lot of time on their characters. It is fun early world, when you'd loose only 1 month of work. But nowadays, when it is very hard to get the skills back, it drives more people out of the game.

* Botting prevention. I doubt this is possible. But that would equalize things a lot. And slow down 24*7*10 windows progress. So I had to write it.

Imho, in my point of view, the devs should focus on why botting is preferable. Things like in amber with auto-fueling, auto-mining the selected area, having one button to drink, rather than selecting the flask and pressing drink improve the situation much more and equalize the players. For instance, high quality scythe now lets people to harvest one field without a need to constantly click on their waterflasks. Small changes like this make the huge difference.

this thread is just a bunch of people echo-ing the same super general idealist ideas back and forth at each other. Might as well make a thread titled "make the game better."

While you are busy with filling the C&I with "Horses should move real", "We need a skybox", "Scents are dumb", "Nerf Boats", "Change the models", "Visual-visual-model-model". Can't imagine the game being better without more gear visible on characters

[DDDsDD999]

this thread is just a bunch of people echo-ing the same super general idealist ideas back and forth at each other. Might as well make a thread titled "make the game better."

While you are busy with filling the C&I with "Horses should move real", "We need a skybox", "Scents are dumb", "Nerf Boats", "Change the models", "Visual-visual-model-model". Can't imagine the game being better without more gear visible on characters

epin tu quoque.

[Kaios]

Forestry? No, it has stopped as soon as everyone reached q 100 trees.
Metals? No, as soon as you will finish your best coal node. Plants? They barely mean anything in this game. Animals? Only the horse stat grind means something. The rest of the cattle you can just mass breed regardless of their qualities.

Those issues don't sound like they have anything to do with a cap though. What's the factor here that is preventing you from going further than q100 in trees if not your stats or any cap? Soil/water/clay I'd assume but that's still not really cap related.

What is the reason for this if what you already have is enough for making stat-capped characters?

I know what my reasons would be but I can't speak for everyone in that regard, I like to build larpy things and quite simply I enjoy the nature of expansion.

Non-quality trades barely make 10-20% of the market trades. Casuals won't buy someone's dough, since they can make it by themselves. They will trade only for the higher quality items. Especially with the travel being so hard.

Once again I'm not sure how that's cap related though, there are many reasons for lack of trade in your market right now and it's not simply because "oh I can make q20 doughs already what would I need those for"

[maze]

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The issue with permadeath is that it makes people quit, if they've invested a lot of time on their characters. It is fun early world, when you'd loose only 1 month of work. But nowadays, when it is very hard to get the skills back, it drives more people out of the game.
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This contradict you- "stat caps are bad"
"It is fun early world, when you'd loose only 1 month of work"
stat cap would be around 1 month of work.


"But nowadays, when it is very hard to get the skills back, it drives more people out of the game."
With players who worked months and month to 500-1000 or more. yeah they quit.

I'll keep repeating myself.
Stat caps would be the artificial balance point the dev would work around.
they can add systems that get people over stat cap (like the relic structure ideas or land bonus)

Farms may hit stat cap but would be needed to refuel warriors.
armor would need to be remade for warriors.
That solves the large faction market problem for you.

The only major problem you're showing me is that you wont have advantage over people when their is a stat cap.
but as I said- if there is stat cap. that puts a bench mark for J&L to work at. where they can update and put new things into the game that add to the endgame past stat caps.


Noobs or hermits~ They just like playing- ask the most well known few of the game, they're normal C&L players. Why they don't go to the market? they frankly don't care about Q or getting metal.
but! there should be a system in place for noobs & hermits to travel for the few that do.