Optional PVP

[abt79]

Two servers would be nice. Would allow for pvpers to keep pvping and having their fun w/ raiding and that kind of thing, while a peaceful server could allow for more expansive empire building without violence. Unwalled farms, pretty looking places, etc.

Unwalled farms?

So no crimes whatsoever would exist? If I weren't a murder man I'd be the best thief, what could anyone do to stop me? And don't tell me "no crimes on claims haha" because then I'd simply set out to claim everything and crying shame to the rest of you!

[maze]

A world without crime is a world that will be grefied to all fk hell.
People would exploit shit non-stop like throwing alt around your doors or claim blocking and demanding you pay em to remove the claims.
I've already run a server like this in sample size of 40 people.
And ffs I hate people, "this is why we cant have nice things"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now we move into Avu OP.

A world with Pvp and Peaceful.
where Peaceful s cant be murdered.

This would need a large amount of systems inorder to make PvP worth way more then peaceful.
and peaceful who have the protection of the lands. need to still be able to be forcefully removed from places.
What happens if a peaceful claims the outter city walls that you were trying to claim.

peacefuls basically should be dirty hobos that can be smacked around who cant really own land. or wall things.
if I need to steam roll an area. they're moving like it or not. unless they call in a faction to defend em'.

peaceful should also be unable to make weapons of war and only weapons of hunting.
and peaceful would also be exploitable in the fact you would be able to hunt with em, gather with em and w/e more. not that~ that really matters...
you should be able to basically punch peaceful out. just not kill. and be able to steal their things.

there is a lot of things. you have to do to make peaceful ok in this game world...basiclly make peaceful players trash.

[Jacobian123]

Two servers would be nice. Would allow for pvpers to keep pvping and having their fun w/ raiding and that kind of thing, while a peaceful server could allow for more expansive empire building without violence. Unwalled farms, pretty looking places, etc.

Unwalled farms?

So no crimes whatsoever would exist? If I weren't a murder man I'd be the best thief, what could anyone do to stop me? And don't tell me "no crimes on claims haha" because then I'd simply set out to claim everything and crying shame to the rest of you!

Lol. Okay, I see the flaw. It was just a suggestion.

[Potjeh]

My realms as safe zones suggestion sidesteps the issue of non-scent griefing, as realm authorities can still kill problem makers as normal, but you also get a safe no-PvP zone as long as realm authorities aren't dicks.

[NOOBY93]

My realms as safe zones suggestion sidesteps the issue of non-scent griefing, as realm authorities can still kill problem makers as normal, but you also get a safe no-PvP zone as long as realm authorities aren't dicks.

...And then Dis claims the whole map and is the only group that is allowed to kill in the world. Good idea.

[Potjeh]

Kingdom expansion needs rethinking even without this.

[ven]

Two servers would be nice. Would allow for pvpers to keep pvping and having their fun w/ raiding and that kind of thing, while a peaceful server could allow for more expansive empire building without violence. Unwalled farms, pretty looking places, etc.

Unwalled farms?

So no crimes whatsoever would exist? If I weren't a murder man I'd be the best thief, what could anyone do to stop me? And don't tell me "no crimes on claims haha" because then I'd simply set out to claim everything and crying shame to the rest of you!

Lol. Okay, I see the flaw. It was just a suggestion.

It's not wrong, it's just that he, and maze, are assuming crime is the only way to remove a claim. There could be a number of systems that forcibly remove other people's claims without resorting to crime. For example, by economic power, where each side sacrifices a random item (similar to the old numen system) until one side can't anymore, or by sacrificing XP, or by comparing player activity, or by making only our first claim non removable, and so on.

Even if that's not the case, crime could still exist, just not murder or direct pvp. Lots of things can be done to reduce griefing here: nidbanes, push out mechanics, scaled crime system to ignore petty crime and punish recurrent ones, reimplementation of HHP damage per criminal action etc.

Still, that's just too much work for something that could be accomplished by simply reducing alts.
And further even, all this is still nonsense because unless an actual test is made we can't know for sure if any of this would or wouldn't work.

[Avu]

I explained why splitting the playerbase is not going to be an issue to the overall population of the game, most people won't even hear of a game with open pvp permadeath. Adding a more peaceful (yet more grieffy server because I know lots of you will do your damn best to grief just out of spite your toys are running away from you) will just give people that would have never considered the game a reason to try it as well as people who have played the game in the past but have grown past the whole pvp thing (or were never into it). There are a lot more people who don't like pvp than those that do even if this forum would like to paint a picture otherwise (hopefully not all will be driven away by reading the forums anyone sane would run for the hills at first contact).

As for thieving well for all the thieves the permadeath pvp system is what killed thieving, when punishment is death and access to a base for crime means the bases obliteration thieves got thrown under the buss. Theft can come back in a limited form once base and character annihilation are over. There can be systems to punish a thief without killing him (most thieves lives were very short and then they gave up since the risk reward has never been worth it so far).

And all the little arguments but people will block your palisades or they'll claim you in sure they will and you'll have to learn to adapt or live with it, have a small temporary claim until you got enough lp to claim your final place fully, build your walls in one go (like we already have to do in the early game before murder is on the table) there are ways out to most problems but we won't know for sure until we try.

[Amanda44]

Well, it will come as no surprise to most that I agree with a lot of your points and think this game would not only survive a shift to some form of optional pvp but also prosper from it.

The game has grown and advanced so much since the re-release it has outgrown full on pvp imho, there is so much more going on in this game than pvp and in my experience over the last six years the vast majority of actual players are not the least bit interested in it and even out of those who are there is a visible split from those who want to fight worthy opponents from those who just want to be a bad-ass kid and kill/destroy everything they come across and are able to.

In all honesty although griefing from frustrated wanna be tough guys can be annoying, I play on some pve servers in other games so know what the failed pvpers are like ... ... I have never experienced griefing so bad I'd rather not play ... it is just the odd idiot and if you can continue to just ignore them they do eventually get bored and move off, it is still preferable to being killed ... or worse, having all your efforts and hard work annihilated.

Plenty of games run perfectly successful pve servers or have optional pvp and yes, the ones I play have a vastly higher player count but I've also found that most players actually play on both servers, I do too, they make their bases and the work they care about on the pve server then jump onto the pvp server when in the mood to rip someones head off! And it works ... it works because the majority on each server are all on the same page and in the same mindset.

I think Haven would do so much better if some form of optional pvp were implemented or devs could afford to run two servers, pve/pvp, I would most def play on both as I do with the other games I play in that way, I'm not against combat, I like pvp where everyone is on the same page, it's exhilarating, esp when you win, lol, but you don't even mind losing in that kind of environment ... ... it's just not the same experience in haven because of how much more there is to the game and how much a lot of us invest in time and effort on those other aspects.

Haven is a crafters/designers paradise these days, even non-larpers larp ... it's impossible not too, more and more is being done to the game by devs in this way with every patch and I do find it odd that they don't seem to acknowledge, despite how much praise is heaped upon them every patch now for all this new stuff, that this kind of content is what the majority wants and invests their time in, just imagine how many more players they would attract by adding something like optional pvp or a pve server ...

Personally I'd like pvp to be more connected to kingdoms and factions than for players being able to just run around killing those with a fraction of their stats for the 'lolz' ... we have siege mechanics now which are rarely used and the ability to claim huge amounts of lands under realms and this should be the area of focus for pvp.

So, you are not alone Avu in your way of viewing Haven as it is now.

[Aceb]

it is just the odd idiot and if you can continue to just ignore them they do eventually get bored and move off, it is still preferable to being killed

From my own experience as a player, moderator and admin, that's not always true. Even now, I can count few games on my fingers that still has griefing problem, because some people exactly stated that "they do eventually get bored"... One of examples: after 2 years in one game via WWW, they still continue to grief exact same way (mostly by creating new accounts for that) as they did 2 years ago, but just less frequently. (and it being WWW game doesn't matter in that case)


If there is going to be any Optional PvP, make it on new/another server, Granger idea seems the best for it.

and no, I can't imagine HNh without PvP, even thou, mostly I'm rather easy prey than actual warrior.