RFC: Metal spiraling

[MagicManICT]

Critical difference between this game and EVE is that in EVE it is possible to ''catch up'' to veteran players. Yes, they will always have more total SP than you,

SP isn't the measure of success in EVE--financing is*. Tactics are important with who can show up with a bigger and/or more appropriate fleet. You don't bring dreads to a frig fight. Bringing a hundred frigs to face a single dread is almost a sure win (thanks Goons, for making pvp with rookie ships illegal). That's just a good way to lose a few billion isk. Even with bad tactics, who can field their fleets longer before someone cries "uncle" from losing too much capital? I don't know who the major factions are anymore, but I can't expect to show up, create a new corp and form an alliance, and expect to challege any of the established players in nullsec any time soon because I probably won't have the financial or political funds to do so. (*You can have a fleet-ready PvP character in a week. Bigger question is experience, training, and the balls to do the PvP. No, SP don't really matter in EVE. It's just a time gate to bigger and different ships and more ISK/hr.)

Point is still made: same people would probably jump into any other established MMO and play only because their "perception" of what the top is is completely different, even if completely wrong, or their motivation for playing is different. It's all just excuses for why they don't play currently, but jump right back into the game when a world starts. I'm not judging or criticizing the people, let's just hear why you really aren't playing the game, and not excuses. Maybe some key concepts will come out and haven will be better for it.

Also, apologies for this off-topic rant.

[Ysh]

Critical difference between this game and EVE is that in EVE it is possible to ''catch up'' to veteran players. Yes, they will always have more total SP than you,

SP isn't the measure of success in EVE--financing is*. Tactics are important with who can show up with a bigger and/or more appropriate fleet. You don't bring dreads to a frig fight. Bringing a hundred frigs to face a single dread is almost a sure win (thanks Goons, for making pvp with rookie ships illegal). That's just a good way to lose a few billion isk. Even with bad tactics, who can field their fleets longer before someone cries "uncle" from losing too much capital? I don't know who the major factions are anymore, but I can't expect to show up, create a new corp and form an alliance, and expect to challege any of the established players in nullsec any time soon because I probably won't have the financial or political funds to do so. (*You can have a fleet-ready PvP character in a week. Bigger question is experience, training, and the balls to do the PvP. No, SP don't really matter in EVE. It's just a time gate to bigger and different ships and more ISK/hr.)

Yes, I think you have explain what I am trying to say here better than I can.

[LostJustice]

And in every thread you bring up this decay argument. And every time you bring it up, you keep making more and more changes to this proposed system to make it fit and work. Every time someone brings up what is wrong with it, you propose adding another mechanic on it to fix it.

Certainly, because I actually read what others write, think about their arguments, project what consequences they would have and adjust the suggestion accordingly when they bring up point why my suggestion fails the goal of having a world that isn't inevitably consumed by the cancer (yes, the fancy word that scientists gave to describe something that dosn't stop growing inside a host till it's failing and dies) that is the current endless growth of numbers.

So yes, that's what I do: make a suggestion, get feedback, improve it, repeat - and staying honest about it while doing that.

Might be a novel concept for someone who seems to be following the footsteps of the Reichspropagandaleiter, like you do by endlessly repeating that made up shit about me not playing the game and having no clue.

So please fuck off with the nonsense you spill about me and enter a reasonable discussion by making a convincing argument why the 100 current concurrent users (your we're used to how that always worked so it has to stay that way group as you claim, and their bots as I guess) are a good reason to keep sticking to mechanics that relieably kill off the interest of the majority of users within 3~4 months (as can be seen here) and discourage busloads of people from starting to play unless there is a world reset (which can be seen here).

Thing is you don't play.

And I made a convincing argument, you are just refusing to accept it. You are not addressing the problem Granger. Just adding another brutal mechanic that probably will just kill the remaining groups that enjoy to play. And that population graph you just linked, people didn't drop off that charts because of quality spiraling infinitely out of control or the fact that someone had higher q. People dropped off because they got burnt out, bored, or to go play a different game and many other reasons. You don't seem to consider other people's arguments much either. The mechanics right now with spiraling is what is keeping people in the game. They are for people who try to work to some goal and their goal is to raise quality. After you have seen all the content, experienced things for several worlds, what else are you going to do besides socialize, pvp, and grind quality? I have no interest as do many others grinding quality to your proposed shitty level cap and then just sitting there with nothing else to do.

Maybe instead of you being a mod telling people to fuck off, try maybe make a convincing argument and read everyone elses. And if you bothered to notice, the only one who is repeating the same decay necro thread in multiple threads and in the same forum. If you search the amount of times you reference it, you literally get the same thread noted 6 times and that was just a very basic search.

[Granger]

Thing is you don't play.

Do you think I want all my characters having a deathwish by announcing 'these are all the characters controlled by Granger'?

Maybe instead of you being a mod telling people to fuck off,

Just FYI: We would have this discussion in the Plea in case I would have told you to fuck off as a mod.

Thing is you don't play.

Fuck off, please go grow yourself some decency.

[strpk0]

except you can catch up in HnH , I did after 6-12 months breaks , not a pvp char but industry. (I would argue it's a lot harder).
Yes I no life'd hardcore for 3 months , yes I burnout , but that's how I always played hnh.
Sure I know people , I didn't started from scratch , but it's normal a single noob can't compete.

I'm tired of reading this bullshit argument over and over.
Also I would love some people to realize that one of the chore mechanics of these kind of game is "infinite growth".
See how popular are incremental games , HnH is , in a sense , an incremental game.

This lmao, imagine having to work hard to achieve something worth bragging about. What an amazing and novel concept!

When you purposely design mechanics so everyone has the same chance to catch up easily, they lose all special meaning and purpose. You are also alienating people like waga that actually enjoy the struggle of catching up to "unfair advantages", in favor of people that IMHO are only good at complaining about how far behind they are of other people, and how everything should adjust to their casual and inefficient way of playing the game.

[LostJustice]

Thing is you don't play.

Do you think I want all my characters having a deathwish by announcing 'these are all the characters controlled by Granger'?

Maybe instead of you being a mod telling people to fuck off,

Just FYI: We would have this discussion in the Plea in case I would have told you to fuck off as a mod.

Thing is you don't play.

Fuck off, please go grow yourself some decency.

Then why bring it up here? Like what? And it end of world, might as well tell us who your characters are. But you don't play so I don't expect anything other than a spruce cap.

Maybe instead of telling me to fuck off as a mod you keep to the topic? Or is that just not pertain here? Because yet you still have to explain how this solves spiraling by not being some sort of stat cap or any problems with spiraling. I can think of quite a few ways to fix and nerf it and you have yet to name one other than just stat capping it disguised as a necro thread quality cap which obviously not a lot of people want.

[fulma]

o o f

[Granger]

I can think of quite a few ways to fix and nerf it and you have yet to name one ...

Page 3: Subject: RFC: Metal spiraling

I see the following problems with metals:

The increase on a critical hit is a percentage (if the comments in this topic are correct), this results in quality increase following an exponential function. Same as in RL this looks quite harmless at the beginning... but a little while later, as soon as the numbers have increased over a certain threshold, the function takes off.

Then the quality of the resulting product in smithing is averaged with the quality of anvil and hammer. This has for the problems of being able to cycle an item repeatedly (as is possible with cast->bloom->cast) will move its quality quickly toward that of anvil/hammer within a few rounds, when adding in the % increase from the critical hit chance it's (statistically) easy to end up with a way highter quality than these, rebuild them, repeat - and that having reached a high quality anvil+hammer one can endlessly stamp out quality metal items from no-quality metal.

My suggestion is to turn all quality modifiers that are not consumed in an item transmutation - at least all objects (like anvil/herbalist table/compost bin/loom/...) but possibly (not really certain about that) also the items used (smiths hammer, axe, saws, treeplanter pots) - into softcaps (so these can't raise ingredient quality anymore) and all quality formulas (for crafting, but also for things soil/water/seed in the tree formula) that still use arithmetic means into using geometric averages.

Sure, this would both cut down speed of progression (as a single high quality ingredient would increase the result less) and couple the maximum achievable qualities (eg. for trees as the herbalist table wouldn't boost the result anymore) tighter to the qualities of the resources that can be extracted from the world - but that would be a good thing as IMHO Haven works quite well until the moment it reaches the point where the exponential functions take off, then it starts to fall apart.

But maybe you have missed that, which could explain the difficulties understanding me.

[LostJustice]

I can think of quite a few ways to fix and nerf it and you have yet to name one ...

Page 3: Subject: RFC: Metal spiraling

I see the following problems with metals:

The increase on a critical hit is a percentage (if the comments in this topic are correct), this results in quality increase following an exponential function. Same as in RL this looks quite harmless at the beginning... but a little while later, as soon as the numbers have increased over a certain threshold, the function takes off.

Then the quality of the resulting product in smithing is averaged with the quality of anvil and hammer. This has for the problems of being able to cycle an item repeatedly (as is possible with cast->bloom->cast) will move its quality quickly toward that of anvil/hammer within a few rounds, when adding in the % increase from the critical hit chance it's (statistically) easy to end up with a way highter quality than these, rebuild them, repeat - and that having reached a high quality anvil+hammer one can endlessly stamp out quality metal items from no-quality metal.

My suggestion is to turn all quality modifiers that are not consumed in an item transmutation - at least all objects (like anvil/herbalist table/compost bin/loom/...) but possibly (not really certain about that) also the items used (smiths hammer, axe, saws, treeplanter pots) - into softcaps (so these can't raise ingredient quality anymore) and all quality formulas (for crafting, but also for things soil/water/seed in the tree formula) that still use arithmetic means into using geometric averages.

Sure, this would both cut down speed of progression (as a single high quality ingredient would increase the result less) and couple the maximum achievable qualities (eg. for trees as the herbalist table wouldn't boost the result anymore) tighter to the qualities of the resources that can be extracted from the world - but that would be a good thing as IMHO Haven works quite well until the moment it reaches the point where the exponential functions take off, then it starts to fall apart.

But maybe you have missed that, which could explain the difficulties understanding me.

Still a cap. It even has cap in the word Granger. I didn't miss it. You don't need to repeat yourself like you have most of this thread. You still have yet to prove anything without capping it.

[Granger]

Still a cap. It even has cap in the word Granger. I didn't miss it. You don't need to repeat yourself like you have most of this thread. You still have yet to prove anything without capping it.

Havn't got the memo of the word (or the discussion of the concept) 'cap' being non-grata on this forum. Let's see:

To begin with, the main problems that we wish to address are these:

• The qualities of metal (or iron, at least) seem to depend mainly on the equipment used, rather than the ore, which doesn't seem right. (Not least in the light of meteorites supposedly providing higher quality, but regardless of that too.)

[...]
As for the quality problem [...] I can see a couple of potential ways to change this:

• The brute-force solution would be to make the finery forge and the wrought-iron crafting recipe soft-cap qualities rather than simply mix them. I don't really like this solution, since it works incongruently with how other similar mechanics work, but it is a possible solution nevertheless.

[...]

He said cap!

hqdefault[1].jpg

Maybe you go stone loftar for a while?

• Insert your other favorite solution here

Comments?

Which exactly was what I did... so I think I'm on topic, you not liking the evil c-word is your problem.
Even spent quite some time on trying to clarify the reasoning to you, which I'll stop now as you don't seem to (want to) get it for reasons beyone me.