Rage Toggle

[Lojka]

current permadeath system works bad.

about 50 people maybe find it ok.

but others can really go to pvp
or if they do - they die and stop playing
without pvp there is less to do in this world, so they stop playing too

full loot is enought in most games. character deaths is what makes game dying

[Headchef]

Character death is not what makes game dying at all.

Just the time you need to invest into the game in general, grows exponentially if you wish to get further into the content.

Examples are villages and realms.

The difference between those in terms of work required and what kind of new content it gives is immense, and many just quit the game after they have reached a stage where they find they have reached everything they reasonably can.

This reasonable aspect is where it differs for many.

Just going back to the state of w11 will not bring playercount up.

Game needs to have more steps that feel rewarding to players that are not insane time commitments.

Which is then very hard to create from a game perspective.

On forums people like to pretend that everyone who quits is just from a death but most of the time it is pure boredom.

But this does not work in favour of those stating these claims, so hence the pretending it's all the evil pvpers comes in handy.

''Full loot'' in haven is a joke, the only thing you can get would be a nicely gilded pants or shirt. Rest of armour is either irrelevant quality or you already have it.

Haven & Market was the biggest mistake. Fighting your enemy one day, shrugging when they hit the floor because who really cares, and seeing them the next day because they arranged to get all the medicine.

A bigger wound system would also not fix this.
Oh wow now I don't see someone 5 days instead of 3 wow so nice nice wound system yes this surely can be compared to actual death system!

Well no, it's completly trash in current state and unless there is some huge rework I cannot ever see wounds being worth pvping for.

All the pvp encounters after the ko update last world were by people who are hanging on to the game they once loved and they don't want to abandon it (yet).

Repeating this mistake would be the nail in the coffin for many.

Death needs to be meaningful.

Maybe we can brainstorm something.

Myself I thought of something along the lines of realms having an impact on deaths of enemy fighters.
Like you kill one guy, got his body and skull, if he wishes to gain back more of his stats then his realm can make an offer, this offer would cost them a huge amount of authority and allow the accepting realm to raise their well quality once without it costing them something, and the player that died gains back more stats due to this deal.

Very rough sketch of idea I just thought of but yea.... Current state is not perfect, but this rage toggle and Haven & Ko are not the answer either.

[Kaios]

On forums people like to pretend that everyone who quits is just from a death but most of the time it is pure boredom.

You know these two things are related, right? Like those players who quit due to boredom could have just as easily went out to pvp due to boredom, lost their character, and then quit.

[TurtleHermit]

Character death is not what makes game dying at all.

On forums people like to pretend that everyone who quits is just from a death but most of the time it is pure boredom.

But this does not work in favour of those stating these claims, so hence the pretending it's all the evil pvpers comes in handy.

Actually it does. It is first reason why people quit at the very beginning. Before realms are made and factions are satisfacted, it's one big "slaughter neighbour" to gain the ground for yourself. It does stop after best resources are claimed and realms are made. Myself, few higher friends often said at the beginning of eac world, how they got rid of hermits and everyone else who was "too close". I don't say it always happen, but mostly does. Then, the second wave of player drop is because of boredom.

However, I agree with rest of your statements. Maybe not the one with markets.

All the pvp encounters after the ko update last world were by people who are hanging on to the game they once loved and they don't want to abandon it (yet).

Repeating this mistake would be the nail in the coffin for many.

Death needs to be meaningful.

Maybe we can brainstorm something.

Myself I thought of something along the lines of realms having an impact on deaths of enemy fighters.
Like you kill one guy, got his body and skull, if he wishes to gain back more of his stats then his realm can make an offer, this offer would cost them a huge amount of authority and allow the accepting realm to raise their well quality once without it costing them something, and the player that died gains back more stats due to this deal.

Very rough sketch of idea I just thought of but yea.... Current state is not perfect, but this rage toggle and Haven & Ko are not the answer either.

Kind of like that. I think if it would be worked on, it could be a nice alternative to legacy sliders.

[Granger]

Kaios just beat me with his point as RL detracted me from submitting this. Anyway:

On forums people like to pretend that everyone who quits is just from a death but most of the time it is pure boredom.

Could well be true. Problem is that for most the decision is to quit from either boredom or from stupidity - the latter would be trying to do PvP with their characters as these would simply be low level mobs to the 'real' PvP ones so they would be killed without further through or delay (making these characters also irrelevant for the rest of the game) while the former would be from avoiding confrontation from knowing that it would be futile from the start.

That's the reason why I argue toward !rage = !death so everyone, including larpers and hermits, could happily try out 'stupid' things without automatically flushing down the rest of what the game offers them ('hording stuff and raising numbers' as it was summed up short while ago by someone) down the toilet as currently where their PvP auto-die characters would do exactly that (die) - but a worst case of 'just' getting 'some' wounds and losing gear (which in my view is, in comparison to character death, palatable*) could well bring more people out of their walls as it wouldn't be the guaranteed end of it all.

Some disagree with this as they like permadeath, question is if there are enough of them to sustain the developers... which I think isn't the case.

*) This is under the premise that characters continue to be the sum of their actions over their whole existance. Should that change so that they might be the sum of what they did over the last 6-8 RL weeks (just to pull a reasonable timeframe) the verdict might be different as the triangle of open PvP, permadeath and long character development might have lost one corner that makes this combination unacceptable to many video gamers. Nevertheless I think that wounds that gimp defeated characters for 1-2 RL weeks could work better.

[Ants]

I don't think online player reduction is somewhere connected with rage mechanics, people stop playing after a few months at every world so far because at this point it's more about grindfest rather then development and discovering stuff.

It is all connected, but I think the end result of all those mechanics is where players lose the most motivation. Do you think I feel motivated to play when I struggle so hard to raise my stats knowing very well that there are plenty of people way ahead of me? That is a very depressing aspect of this game made only worse by a combat system that has no skill involved in it. Add to that fact that now it's all about grinding and the players who can't keep up won't be able to have any fun in pvp content or in pve content then so they'll just quit after their first death.

You don't need super high stats to be a decent farmer or crafter. Stats matter most in PVP, which is why I think a cap on battle related stats might be a good idea. That way people could catch up.

Your argument is the following:
"Players get gimped in PvE for participating in PvP."
"People shouldn't need to make alts to experience the game."

The main purpose of having alts is the fact that Haven's core structure revolves around specialization. (Hint: Credo selection, LP allocation, Attribute selection). To change that very aspect of the game and make players not need alts would require massive changes to the game overall. And here's the pro tip: You don't even need alts. If you don't want to take the time to make one that's perfectly fine, but YOU made that choice to put all your eggs in one basket. If you want to participate in PvP in this situation, you should absolutely accept the fact that you may be gimped in PvE for doing so. You shouldn't ask the devs to make massive changes to a system that is not inherently broken in the first place, because YOU don't like players having alts.

You can either have a permadeath game, or a game where you whack other people with pool noodles.

The devs have stated that Haven will always be a permadeath game.

Edit:

Part of this should be fixed by making wounds from players more extreme. Why the fuck a b12 gives deep cuts instead of nasty lacerations/wretched gore is beyond me

Because "individuals of questionable intellectual capacity" that can't do math and don't understand HHP damage complained about dying to developer "individuals of questionable intellectual capacity" that also can't do math and don't understand HHP damage.

Edit:
Edited to use more politically correct terms because I'm tired of getting dipshit messages from Granger waving around his little plastic sheriff's badge.

I also find it laughable that arrows to targets with armor only deals SHP damage, and don't even give any injuries. Even if the arrows have "Armor Penetration." lmao Wheres the wounds from those?

There's no arrow wounds? Lmfao. So you're saying midges are more deadly than archers?

Yes please massively this.

I came back from a long hiatus and bought Rage for the skills not knowing the murder skill was no longer a thing. I didn't know about the consequences, please, take it back! Take the skills too, keep the LP! Please, I just don't want to die!

There REALLY needs to be a warning before you purchase the rage skill. A lot of noobs don't seem to realize purchasing it makes you a lot more vulnerable.

[Fostik]

Buying a skill is permanent. This is makes accidental click on your peaceful character sheet dangerous as hell, and need to be fixed somehow.

[loleznub]

I'd be willing to bet that if the devs created a second server where there was no PvP, it would degrade into "Who can wall in the other players fast enough and starve their resources out so they cannot play the game anymore because I can't be killed by them." within a fucking week. Again, making people unable to die is a terrible idea as it opens up the can of worms of unpunishable griefing, which would kill the game further.

There's no arrow wounds? Lmfao. So you're saying midges are more deadly than archers?

Yes. Go to Valhalla with an alt account and put a set of q 200 armor on and shoot them with q200 metal arrows with a q 200 or so bow. Unless it was changed like 2-3 weeks ago, this only did SHP damage with no wounds.

[nosfirebird]

On forums people like to pretend that everyone who quits is just from a death but most of the time it is pure boredom.

the dozens of people who i have spoken to all have quit because they want to pvp but dont have time to quest and satiations are 2 punishing when you die you are forced to quit and wait for w12 there needs to be a stat cap of 1 or 2k or a way to catch up that isnt abusable

[Lojka]

On forums people like to pretend that everyone who quits is just from a death but most of the time it is pure boredom.

yes, but death is still counts

1. some get bored, because they fear to go far from base as they could be killed.
2. some get bored, because if they go far from base, they met no one, because everyone is sitting behind walls because of 1

this punishing system make people stay behind walls more and more, first they stop foraging, because they can now make some curios inside walls, then they can grow some curios in pots
then going outside your village stop to give you anything, and just add some danger.