THE Boat trip

[VDZ]

Hey, just for context: a single fighter with low stats could've killed either of those two before they got to shore pretty easily.

Knarr combat is lame because actual knarr combat where both sides are trying to win is bad. If you roam around looking to kill nabs in dugouts two people in separate areas searching solo would generate significantly more kills/hour than 10 people in one knarr.

Also, if you make it so only the driver in knarrs/sneks can attack, especially with the quality of sneks/knarrs affecting movement speed, it's going to create some weird/ugly navel fights. Basically your side can only have as many fighters as you have highQ sneks, and needing alts to block every slot of your snek so you don't get boarded? Anybody who gets boarded by multiple people, or boarded by one person + having a snek on them gets fricked? Seems bad idk

Well, by those standards:
You automatically lose if your opponent is in a sled and you're not.
You automatically lose if you're in Odeeper with a snek and they're not.
You automatically lose if you're in Oshallow in a snek and you're not.
You automatically lose if you're in a knarr and they're in a snek.
You automatically lose if your snek/knarr is lowerQ.
You automatically lose if you're low on water/energy.

Of all of these "you automatically lose if you dugout/coracle/rowboat far from shore" seems like the least bad

This just simply isn't true. You're assuming any PVPer will inevitably win quickly against any victim they're griefing, but that just isn't true. A while back I got ganked by three hat raiders (properly equipped with b12s and stuff, three weeks after world start), and to my surprise I managed to survive with basically no damage via proper use of restorations (including two well-placed Dashes when I managed to get some space for a bit) until I ran out of water and all three of them were able to get into range at the same time (at which point I was KOed in no time). All in all it took them almost three minutes to KO me; definitely enough time to at least navigate to shallow water in a situation like this.

Even if the griefer's stats were tons higher than the victim's, it still takes multiple hits to generate the openings to actually deal significant damage; even in the worst case, players will have several seconds to respond. In the current situation, people get KOed instantly, or at best have two seconds before they're KOed.

Think about it... You really didn't have to drown noobs to make your point - which I validate if you weren't such an asshole.

But he did. He told the devs about it and told them to fix it, but they didn't. This trick will be used by others regardless of whether shubla publicly demonstrates it or not. And it's not just noobs - any player, including shubla himself, can be ganked like this. He has a valid reason to be worried enough about this to kill players over it.

I mean, blocking some noob so that he drowns for no reason, dude that's fucked up. Please get some mental healing you are sick.

That is actually a valid point. There were no reason to drown people, demosntarting that you can KO in 3 seconds is enough to prove that Knarr combat is broken...

I'd say triggering someone hard enough to complain about this being possible - precisely the point shubla is trying to make - adds a lot of weight to his argument. If it were a purely theoretical argument, even if with a demonstration that KOing someone quickly is possible, people could argue that the potential damage caused by this trick is not as bad as speculated. Demonstrating that in a real situation you can murder anyone in a matter of seconds, with the player already having no chance of survival two seconds in, eliminates any doubt that the current state of knarr combat versus single players in a boat is horribly broken.

[graouh]

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Yes there are exploits, yes, some people are skilled enough to abuse them, and yes, it's nice to report them.
But killing noobs to illustrate it is just wrong, and I will never validate that. This was a dick move admit it.

[graouh]

people could argue that the potential damage caused by this trick is not as bad as speculated. Demonstrating that in a real situation you can murder anyone in a matter of seconds, with the player already having no chance of survival two seconds in, eliminates any doubt that the current state of knarr combat versus single players in a boat is horribly broken.

it's obvious that the kid is body blocked and will die, and start from 0.
I would have respected a real nice player that would have let the sprucecap live. That's all.

This video is finally all about an asshole abusing game mechanics and finally not so much concerned about other IG people lives except his.

[SnuggleSnail]

Hey, just for context: a single fighter with low stats could've killed either of those two before they got to shore pretty easily.

Knarr combat is lame because actual knarr combat where both sides are trying to win is bad. If you roam around looking to kill nabs in dugouts two people in separate areas searching solo would generate significantly more kills/hour than 10 people in one knarr.

Also, if you make it so only the driver in knarrs/sneks can attack, especially with the quality of sneks/knarrs affecting movement speed, it's going to create some weird/ugly navel fights. Basically your side can only have as many fighters as you have highQ sneks, and needing alts to block every slot of your snek so you don't get boarded? Anybody who gets boarded by multiple people, or boarded by one person + having a snek on them gets fricked? Seems bad idk

Well, by those standards:
You automatically lose if your opponent is in a sled and you're not.
You automatically lose if you're in Odeeper with a snek and they're not.
You automatically lose if you're in Oshallow in a snek and you're not.
You automatically lose if you're in a knarr and they're in a snek.
You automatically lose if your snek/knarr is lowerQ.
You automatically lose if you're low on water/energy.

Of all of these "you automatically lose if you dugout/coracle/rowboat far from shore" seems like the least bad

This just simply isn't true. You're assuming any PVPer will inevitably win quickly against any victim they're griefing, but that just isn't true. A while back I got ganked by three hat raiders (properly equipped with b12s and stuff, three weeks after world start), and to my surprise I managed to survive with basically no damage via proper use of restorations (including two well-placed Dashes when I managed to get some space for a bit) until I ran out of water and all three of them were able to get into range at the same time (at which point I was KOed in no time). All in all it took them almost three minutes to KO me; definitely enough time to at least navigate to shallow water in a situation like this.

Even if the griefer's stats were tons higher than the victim's, it still takes multiple hits to generate the openings to actually deal significant damage; even in the worst case, players will have several seconds to respond. In the current situation, people get KOed instantly, or at best have two seconds before they're KOed.

Well, by those standards

^ this bit is doing a lot of work there.

My point is that only nabs are really affected by this, and nabs are going to die to dumb stuff either way.

If you know to hearth after you're KOed you're in the top 70% in terms of PVP knowledge
If you remove leeches you're in the top 50%
If you know to get on land when the enemy's boat is faster than yours, you're in the top 30% in terms of PVP knowledge
If you remember 4th speed exists you're in the top 25%
If you can run in a straight line without defending you're in the top 20%
If you can run in a straight line and defend you're in the top 10%
If you can click on bunnies you're basically a god compared to the average user

If you "fix" knarr combat by making it so, for example, only one person can attack it a time it will barely reduce the effectiveness of that strat. My character is garbage, but I'd have still downed that first guy in 1 QB>full circle. Similar for coracleboi, and you could block him with the knarr anyway.

[graouh]

** some interesting stuff **

Your point would be valid if you weren't such a cheater.
I mean it's easy to explain the basic rules when you are the first to break them.

Top vote for : "Noobs gonna die, it's normal to kill them to prove how a few assholes abuse the game"

[VDZ]

Well, by those standards

^ this bit is doing a lot of work there.

My point is that only nabs are really affected by this, and nabs are going to die to dumb stuff either way.

If you know to hearth after you're KOed you're in the top 70% in terms of PVP knowledge
If you remove leeches you're in the top 50%
If you know to get on land when the enemy's boat is faster than yours, you're in the top 30% in terms of PVP knowledge
If you remember 4th speed exists you're in the top 25%
If you can run in a straight line without defending you're in the top 20%
If you can run in a straight line and defend you're in the top 10%
If you can click on bunnies you're basically a god compared to the average user

If you "fix" knarr combat by making it so, for example, only one person can attack it a time it will barely reduce the effectiveness of that strat. My character is garbage, but I'd have still downed that first guy in 1 QB>full circle. Similar for coracleboi, and you could block him with the knarr anyway.

The point here is not that noobs should survive an attack from griefers on a knarr. The point is that people have, if they make the right decisions, a chance to survive an attack from griefers on a knarr. In the latter situation, death is your own fault; the game presented a challenge to you (albeit a very difficult one) and you failed to overcome it. In the former situation, the game just screws you over: You never had a chance from the start. Harsh penalties for failure is valid game design and with the right mindset should not detract from the fun (and anyone thin-skinned enough to have that ruin the game for them wouldn't last long in Haven anyways). But harsh penalties like character death out of nowhere, through no fault of your own, with no way to avoid them are just bullshit and genuinely ruin enjoyment of the game. Death should be (at least partially) the player's fault, not the game's.

[shubla]

watch the video again. at 0:02, the guy on the canoe is spotted. at 0:05, he's knocked out in the water - no chance of recovery, guaranteed death. like i say, it's one thing to get knocked out and get your fox hat and fishing pole took, but to lose a character in literally 3 seconds with no chance of recovering the body is kinda fucked up, whether they're a noob or not. and if they were even 1 tile in the deep water, it would have been the same outcome.

so far i think potjeh has had the best idea on how to change this

Yeah, everybody says that just get to shallow water, but when you are boating around, eating cookies with one hand in your pants, and knarr full of people comes in your screen, its surprisingly difficult to do rational quick decisions, like click yourself to the shallow water immediately, as you have basically 3 seconds of time to get into shallow water, or less. And this is all assuming that you even know that you should get to shallow water.
--

Not boat-combat issue related.

If one can setup N number of alt's + boat, one could have easily also created some muck-up targets as well. Instead of using unasked/unwilling participants to one' s experiment.
If one says to have complained about something in private, and want to make a point about not being taken serious (in one' s personal view). One should include the actually text of those complaint to show how one did the complaining. ("ie: boat combat sucks, fucking fix it (or I will ...)" vs something else)
If one has a real concern about some game mechanic one could have started a dedicated (and serious) topic on it, and flush it out there. (instead of complaining about it only when it happed to you).

Slapping a "for a(/the) greater good!" is a historical way to justify actions that where knowingly at the cost of others. Making it by definition a good indication of some morality lacking aspects.
(ie: the lazy way to justify something that one knows one is executing poorly, but one it to lazy, or indifferent, to do it differently because of overwriting personal priorities. (ie: hardly a classic Trolley_problem) )

I wonder how many of the shubla's used method supporters would still be so positive/supportive of it if they would have been one of those unwilling participants.

(I wonder how many western consumers would still be in support of using China as cheap product supplier for the economical "greater good", when China's influence is starting to effect them in less positive ways. Although, seeing how the WHO(World Health Organization) is already China infected, it seems a bit late for that.)

Taking unwilling participants makes the message more severe, giving it more attention, forcing devs to act.
Reminds people that stuff that happens in the video happens every day even by non botters, because the boat combat is broken.

[Potjeh]

watch the video again. at 0:02, the guy on the canoe is spotted. at 0:05, he's knocked out in the water - no chance of recovery, guaranteed death. like i say, it's one thing to get knocked out and get your fox hat and fishing pole took, but to lose a character in literally 3 seconds with no chance of recovering the body is kinda fucked up, whether they're a noob or not. and if they were even 1 tile in the deep water, it would have been the same outcome.

so far i think potjeh has had the best idea on how to change this

Potjeh's idea doesn't solve the issue. Will we need a person to make an knarr archery bot to kill people as well, for that interim solution to be scrapped?

You don't even be needing to touching someone to spam them with arrows, and the shooting time is very low.

You can't have the whole knarr shoot tho because they'd be blocking eachother's shots. You basically have to broadside to get just half of your crew to shoot a target.

[wonder-ass]

lmao just remove the fact that you cant tp to hearthfire in water its literally that simple.
there is no reason to make the water so deadly and scary when the rest of the game is barbies horse adventure.

[shubla]

lmao just remove the fact that you cant tp to hearthfire in water its literally that simple.

No its not, you may still die because of hhp dmg and getting KO'd sucks. Especially if you don't have time to throw away your snekkja/knarr key.