Make PVP opt-in only

[Seriouskai]

Didn't read the rest of the thread but this is a bad idea. Aggroing someone isn't the only act of aggression. A game without PvP combat just leads to hideous shenanigans. This is a game about survival where anything can cost you dearly. Back in the day, being caught with your pants down meant nearly guaranteed death. It should at least remain a shadow of that.

Fortunately, I generally don't think Zent has bad takes but I also might not have paid much attention, so I won't be assuming the worst.

Yeah though most likely back in the day every other random you meet wasn't a murderer either, unfriendly sure, but straight up cleave you with a B12 axe, probably not so much.

[Zentetsuken]

So then you agree it works as a means to conflict resolution, and I don't take you for a sweatlord. Isn't this entire thread about how its "literally impossible" for anyone except the top sweatlords to use PvP as a means to get what they want out of the game? What makes the rest of the community that choose to forego PvP/denounce it different to you?

We didn't have to engage the people in PVP that we did, people tried to build a village claim very close to us in a way that would have claimed our closest swamp. We destroyed this vclaim and when we found out the idiots moved only a few grids away we attacked them out of boredum. The conflict was over at that point and we only attacked to "teach a lesson." A few of my villagemates were much more invested in PVP than I was, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered because I don't find the PVP to be very fun.

In a PVP-opt-in world I assume that this scenario would have gone 1 of 2 different ways, either it would have played out the exact same and the people in my village who love PVP would have been opt-in and went to engage them, at which point they would have either been met with a group who wanted to fight back, or didn't want to.

We were able to resolve the actual problem by handbashing their stupid vclaim, that would not change and that it really what the important part was.

I fully agree that what it often devolves into at the later stages of the world is very unhealthy, infact I'll be the first to call the devs out on stupid mechanics that hurt people who don't have a min-max playstyle or get the most out of said mechanics through bots and similar, which give an advantage to the bigger factions or groups of more experienced players. I just disagree that the solution is to make PvP optional or remove it. Infact I more think that doing those things would only worsen "toxic"/"bad-for-the-game" behaviour carried out by the spicier people in this community. Being able to aggro someone and kill them is only a small part of the universe of opportunities that exist in this game to actually legitimately prevent someone else from playing it, or make them have such a terrible time that they choose to quit instead.

I am of the opinion that the "bad for the game behaviour" has reached its pinnacle relative to PVP. It's insanely easy and even after 2 worlds worth of tweaks and attempts to adjust things the game is absolute trash for new players and people who do not minmax during the last 4/5ths of the world.

I absolutely agree that these types players would atleast try to find non-PVP methods to induce the same amount of toxicity, but I don't see how it is possible that it could be worse than it is right now. Every scenario I can imagine is either; WAY more approachable and intuitive for a new player to counter, or takes so much time and effort that I am left thinking that even those sweatiest autist wouldn't bother.

Even if I am completely and totally wrong, which is absolutely a possibility - atleast we tried? This game is in an eternal state of alpha and 90% of the arbitrary shit that the devs add to the game is done so with the same careless and experimental disposition. If the game gets absolutely worse for new players and it turns out to be really, really easy for toxic players to continue being toxic, and this playstyle is as fun for them without PVP ... then I was wrong and we have a full world that is no more or less enjoyable than any before it.

If I am right, and it seems like a good foundation to built future updates on, the devs can continue to tweak things that would disallow more and more silly toxic trolling and probably change a bunch of arbitrary stuff that everybody hates along the way. We'll be back in the same place we are today but maybe with higher player retention, maybe with more new people sticking to the game and community, and people having a full year to learn mechanics without being scared away.

No matter how you shake it, it's worth trying at the very least.

[Dimlight25]

... Perhaps this part is debatable but I think bringing up this argument as a rebuttal to removing PVP is fundamentally dishonest.

Few reflections:

* I dare to say that >95% does not care about the PVP and having fights. That is the reality.

* PVPers do not keep this game running and contribute to the player base, because they quit after few months being bored (except one of few trolling newbs).

* The absence of PVP would create massive chain reaction in the overall mechanics, thus it could remain with some changes to it.

My solution would be:

* Active PVP-lovers are usually from factions. Thus, make PVP an automated opt-in for faction/realm members once they get sworn in. The rest are non-PVP.

* Drastically increase penalties for PVPers killing non-PVP players to discourage such events, but keep it allowed.

* Remove penalties for PVPer killing other PVPer.

* Substitute perma-death with the mechanics like 80% stats/skills are regained over time of 1-2 RL weeks.

* Grant p- and v-claims large buffer zones to prevent trolling.

* Increase significantly authority drain from claimed natural resources.

.. and:

* PVE server would have enormous success and would attract many new ppl from outside H&H (devs - think about subscriptions ).

I do agree that the idea of factions are 100% instant opt-in pvp and also the idea of any crime done will enable opt-in automatically, and it would take like 2 RL hours to turn the opt in pvp off, this will include trespassing which will automatically opt in.

[telum12]

I think aleck is vastly underestimating the amount of effort going into hunting down nabs and vastly overestimating the amount of effort griefing is without your fresh alts being killable

[telum12]

Like 90% of the nab kills are the nabs being stupid. If you actually cared you’d be teaching people how to not be stupid (and I’m not even talking about knowing how to run). But you don’t actually care about that, because this is all just either trolling or strawman arguments

[Zentetsuken]

You know very well that none of the anti-PVP sentiment is trolling.

I genuinely think that the foundation of the game can be shifted and segmented this way and we'd come out on the other side with a better game for everybody.

I think the ideas of mechanics shifting to accommodate 2 archetypes of players could be very interesting.

Imagine the idea of realm buffs that have a give and take mechanic, realms, that buff peaceful players and impede PVP, and realms that buff PVP but impede peaceful.

Imagine how much this could break up big factions and force us back in to the small outpost type of playing we had a few worlds ago.

Imagine how such a system could integrate in to achievements and credos.

I am offering this idea as an immediate solution to a problem that nobody can deny exists and with a genuine vision for how it can be built upon in a positive way.

If it doesn't work and ends up making the game objectively worse then it will be no different than dozens and dozens of temporary systems and mechanic changes that were implemented before it.

It will be 100% worth a try.

[dafels]

I like the arguments that have been described here, but I dislike the solution of the problems. I am more of side of having a separated pvp world where all of the mechanics that have been implemented to prevent botting and other larper mechanics like visitor debuff being removed, sieging made more easier, satiation trash removed, credo trash removed, easy fast travel like in legacy, palibashing restored, real permadeath where you would die everytime you get a KO with something like peaceful/martial slide like itwas back in legacy, while the other world being larper friendly like having a pvp opt out and stuff like that.
"Dividing the playerbase" is a meme in this case because both of the sides will enjoy the best experience of their preference if we have 2 worlds. Right now it is just delivering low to mediocre experience to all of the players on both of the larper and pvper fronts . Right now the game seems to be favoring the larpers more and it is not succeeding now while back in the day the game was more about permadeath and it had way better player retention , so just split it up and let the best world survive.

[Zentetsuken]

I like the arguments that have been described here, but I dislike the solution of the problems. I am more of side of having a separated pvp world where all of the mechanics that have been implemented to prevent botting and other larper mechanics like visitor debuff being removed, sieging made more easier, satiation trash removed, credo trash removed, easy fast travel like in legacy, palibashing restored, real permadeath where you would die everytime you get a KO with something like peaceful/martial slide like itwas back in legacy, while the other world being larper friendly like having a pvp opt out and stuff like that.
"Dividing the playerbase" is a meme in this case because both of the sides will enjoy the best experience of their preference if we have 2 worlds. Right now it is just delivering low to mediocre experience to all of the players on both of the larper and pvper fronts . Right now the game seems to be favoring the larpers more and it is not succeeding now while back in the day the game was more about permadeath and it had way better player retention , so just split it up and let the best world survive.

This thread was meant to be a realistic solution.

Separate worlds is not realistic, it was something jorb rebutted with as a meme to try to change the subject and unravel the discussion.

They can barely manage to babysit a single world, there is no way that we are ever going to see two separate ones with 2 separate systems.

I am really trying to steer away from the "this is the dream solution" type of argument because I feel like they are about as helpful and productive as trolling at this point the lifecycle of this game. We know how the development of this game works, we are capable of offering suggestions that work within the parameters of what is actually possible and realistic.

This is jorb and loftar, we are absolutely not going to get the best solution to any problem, so I am offering something that I think is the best realistic solution.

[wonder-ass]

i don't care lmao thanks for the hat cya next world

Wonder Ass we all know your a good for nothing Shit haven player. just like snuggle snail you have no back bone leaching off people for hats and to boost your char. PS how is your mothers basement still full of black mold?

hmu if u need a new village im looking for a new bottom boi cocksleeve mines big so you better practice b4

[Pommfritz]

I want pve opt-in only