P2P plan

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: P2P plan

Postby PowPow » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:15 pm

Ants wrote:
PowPow wrote:Started my new charater.

Laggy as fuck.

Pathing is WORSE than before.

Not only that, but I thought that this upgraded version of the game would be better in those areas I wanted it to be better. I expected my toon to walk around trees, but instead we have the same brain dead pathing that wasn't acceptable back in 1998 present in this game, again.

Sounds effects are the same. The icons for skills and such are nearly the same. This game just feels like a new skin to me. Still feels like a game that 2 assholes and 6 years should have improved upon, but instead went with the same 'broken engine under the hood, new coat of paint on the outside to attract buyers." I offered these kids free art nearly 5 years ago, and they said no. Feels good being vindicated in knowing when my dev team makes a game in the span of 4 months, it makes us money. We get respect from our small community. We create quality games. Not this refried garbage passed of as gourmet. This game has been under development for nearly a decade and it still plays like it was a game hashed up and thrown together in a month or two. LAZY.

Terrible. This was passable back in 2008 when HvH was new and fresh, but in 2015? No thank you, and ESPECIALLY for a MMO fee.... LOL.



What games do you develop? Can you post some of the free art you offered Jorbtar? I'm curious.

A-and.. would you ever consider developing something similar to H&H?


Well, to be fair, when I posted my offer for art, these kids had the rule in place that they weren't accepting new art. I respect that. But I asked anyway. I know that indy devs online are scared of possible law suits and problems with using art from various sources, but I was willing to do it for free then sign away my rights to the art. But hey, if they wanted to spend 6 years drawing a pumpkin on their own, so be it.

I would LOVE to make a much better version of HnH. Problem is, I do everything BUT code. I do art, music, sound, dev planning, writing, etc. And typically, all coders want to do now a days is turn out some crap to make money as fast as possible. Something, it turns out, these two kids have decided to do. They'll make some money, but they won't make nearly as much money as they could have if they did things the right way from the start.

I'm not paying 25 cents a month for a game where the pathing is WORSE than in the previous version.
PowPow
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:18 am

HAVEN & HEARTH (No longer 100% free??????) (time limits)

Postby Pantyhose » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:45 pm

What in the world!

Why is there time limits to this game. This game has ALWAYS been free and very community based. Now it's got all these restrictions and slowly but surely as people discover this FACT, less and less people will play this game ever again!

Bring back the old haven and hearth if this is the crap with have to deal with!!!!!
Pantyhose
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:44 pm

Re: P2P plan

Postby DeathToSuperman » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:51 pm

kris_hole wrote:
cicero76 wrote:I think the problem with this model is that you just can't own the game. Even if you have verified account, you can't be sure. If the servers go down, your game goes down. If the play hours are over, the game is over. If you pay for a subscription, it still will end. You can't own the game, you can rent it for an enormous price for 80% of server uptimes, and of that 80%, 60% non waiting situations, and on that 60%, Even more little percenteages. You can't find your friends because people like to cheat. You can't play forever because people like to get money. You can't simply buy the game because... Sweden. I have no idea why they chose a disturbed, complicated, menacing and just plain intimidating subscription-based time-wasting p2p model. It's not pay 2 play anymore. It's just weird



The game has literally just been put online, you honeslty expected a 100% uptime during the alpha testing of a new release? Are you fucking retarded? "we can't own it" do you own any other online game when the servers are offline like? idiot.

As for everyone bitching about this, i work part-time minimum wage and i can afford this. I pay rent, tax, the full works, and i can afford this. So all of you fucking raging lunatics complaining that a game which has been free to play for 7 years, meaning the devs have spent 7 years of their life developing/working/maintaining, to bitch because they are asking for some money so they can pay their shit, you can all just go fuck yourselves. Seriously though, do you even have the slightest clue of what it takes to develop something like this? to do that in your spare time when you've been at work, whatever other shit is in their lives that they have to get done. But they should just give that out for free? mate fuck you.

To those arguing the price etc, each to their own, its what you consider the game to be worth. I have no issue with it as it is, $10/month if you go in 30-day packages. Nothing to complain about.

Based on how you talk, I'll bet your IRA and index fund investments are doing WONDERFULLY.
Why is it that this is being repeated so often? "I work part time, and I pay, so you're just a whiner!"
Some of us actually care about what our money goes to! Some of us don't appreciate being blindsided by exorbitant costs for gameplay. (Six dollars a month is a bold-faced lie, for twelve dollars less I could get a AAA title without game time limits). In a year at ten dollars a month, I could have bought a CoD game and all of it's DLC, and even that cash cow would let me continue to play for the life of my hardware.
User avatar
DeathToSuperman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:42 pm

Re: P2P plan

Postby Lunarius_Haberdash » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:47 pm

DeathToSuperman wrote:Some of us actually care about what our money goes to! Some of us don't appreciate being blindsided by exorbitant costs for gameplay.


.... Exorbitant? $10 a month is exorbitant? Jesus man, I am the furthest thing from wealthy or comfortable and $10 isn't EXORBITANT. I am completely baffled where people get the idea that this is EXPENSIVE.

More than you want to pay maybe, but that doesn't make it exorbitant or expensive, that just makes you cheap (or poor, to be fair).

But lets be constructive shall we?

It was my original understanding that the $15 a month was 720 hours of game play, with the benefit to the player being they could burn through it in a fashion that was normal for their activity and availability, and that it was beneficial to Jorb/Loftar as it got them money from people who didn't need/want/were to cheap to subscribe.

Frankly, if time could be bought in chunks of $5 or so, and $15 was like 360 hours of game play (6 hours a day every day for 2 months) it would be in reach for many of those who claim that the price of a pack of cigarettes is too much to pay for a monthly subscription to a game they love(d).

I understand that's not how the system works now, but subscription/pay for time/verification for small chunk would be a completely reasonable scheme.

If you're just not interested in paying anything? Then frankly you don't have reason to bitch, you pay nothin', you get nothin', just like the rest of life.
jorb: I don't want *your* money. You are rude and boring. Go away.
Sevenless: We already know real life has some pretty shitty game mechanics, it's why we're here instead.
Avu: The end is near it has finally come to pass: I agree with Lunarius...
Shubla: There are also other reasons to play this game than to maximize your stat gain.
User avatar
Lunarius_Haberdash
 
Posts: 1477
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:14 am

Re: P2P plan

Postby DeathToSuperman » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:01 pm

Lunarius_Haberdash wrote:
DeathToSuperman wrote:Some of us actually care about what our money goes to! Some of us don't appreciate being blindsided by exorbitant costs for gameplay.


.... Exorbitant? $10 a month is exorbitant? Jesus man, I am the furthest thing from wealthy or comfortable and $10 isn't EXORBITANT. I am completely baffled where people get the idea that this is EXPENSIVE.

More than you want to pay maybe, but that doesn't make it exorbitant or expensive, that just makes you cheap (or poor, to be fair).

But lets be constructive shall we?

It was my original understanding that the $15 a month was 720 hours of game play, with the benefit to the player being they could burn through it in a fashion that was normal for their activity and availability, and that it was beneficial to Jorb/Loftar as it got them money from people who didn't need/want/were to cheap to subscribe.

Frankly, if time could be bought in chunks of $5 or so, and $15 was like 360 hours of game play (6 hours a day every day for 2 months) it would be in reach for many of those who claim that the price of a pack of cigarettes is too much to pay for a monthly subscription to a game they love(d).

I understand that's not how the system works now, but subscription/pay for time/verification for small chunk would be a completely reasonable scheme.

If you're just not interested in paying anything? Then frankly you don't have reason to bitch, you pay nothin', you get nothin', just like the rest of life.

Stop talking down to me and start paying attention to what has actually been said. You've once again repeated the mantra "if you won't pay you must be poor / cheap", which brings absolutely NOTHING new to the table.

Do you want to know how much stuff I could get with the cumulative costs that ten dollars a month would bring? Again, in six months time you'd have paid for a AAA game, only the AAA game would be playable for the life of your own hardware. I said it earlier. This has everything to do with value, and nothing to do with whether or not we CAN pay for it. Smart people don't just buy things because they can. I'd have bought loads of other things just because I could, otherwise; I work at a Best Buy with all sorts of neat gadgets. I could buy myself a new pair of headphones, or a Fitbit. Am I cheap because I won't buy one unless someone does so for me, or I get it for free? Only an idiot would argue this, because any rational adult would be able to recognize and respect that I am simply acting on priorities with my money. The last thing I need as a young man working part time is an added ten dollar per month drain (again don't mention the six dollars because that's 72 up front, a AAA plus some DLC in value).
User avatar
DeathToSuperman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:42 pm

Critique of actual development decisions and the pay model.

Postby Saival » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:02 pm

As seen by someone who didnt even played the game once.

Two days ago I bookmarked H&H website to check the game later.
Now, upon discovering the fact of going p2p and seeing how the community was treated I feel no incentive to play.

Keep In mind Im only basing my opinions on the first look - which is mostly misleading, but also mostly decisive on the fact if I (the customer) will buy the product.

I have a few things to point out, with one main thought I got from analyzing what is happening;
This game is in desperate need of Community Manager and Designer! It seems that the creators of the game are gamemaking geniuses, as they managed to construct H&H with rather small resources, but their genius comes with a price; they are antisocial morons that can't handle money. Making a business (and monetisation turns this game into one) should require tons of research, preparations, consultations with specialists and more. Meanwhile, It looks like there was no developing process. If there was one, we can't know, as it was mostly inbetween authors, with no information given to customers. Which brings me to the f1rst point:

Doing things like that is a PR disaster. A bullet taken to the Image of the game. Not only that controversial decision was "pulled out of ass", but there is nearly not enough communication between playerbase and the crew. When I entered the forums I saw no official posts, no discussion, no "sorry", no polls, no nothing. Only very old community members arguing. It does not make the game look good to potential customer. Its repulsing. You are making yourself a bad reputation. If immediate actions won't be taken it can sink the ship. People on few other sites about MMORPGS are already making a shitstorm. This negative marketing can bring some people to the game, but do you think that most of them will be here to play and pay? No, most of them will be enjoying the disaster, like me!
Before turning the game into a business most delicate actions should be made to improve the image. New graphic looks very appealing to the newcomers. But what about the page? It does not look "serious enough". It has bugs and lacks QoL improvements (case sensitive login and email restoration). Of course, one may say; but we don't have time to make this look better. To which I respond; this is your frontpage. It can be a decisive aspect of attracting customers. Take care about it, even if it requires postponing the game. Postponing to deliver a better product is good in most cases. If you want to make money, you need to play the economics rules. One of them is "The customer is the king". The customer at least has to think he is the king. Currently, I feel more like a unwanted peon.

The business model makes the thing worse. Turning a f2p game into p2p is strange and most people will feel attacked (as you take something from them). One hit to the marketing image. Making the game rather price'y, another hit. Making customers pay for a product which (as I was informed by reading some comments) might be plagued by bugs, disconnects and stuff, third hit. Any sensible person does not like paying for beta.
Why I consider the price a bit too high? Welp, its higher than goddamit World of Warcraft! Also, why the subscription works as a restriction lifter, instead of adding game time (based on ingame hours?). Its confusing. Meanwhile, 720 hours for 15$ dollars look really good. Even 720 hours for 30$ looks good. Its not even half a dollar for an hour. Marketing. We can assume that 720hours would last for 3-4 months, so it makes almost a ten dollar per month. It sounds much more player friendly (also it is much more player friendly).
The line "Game Time is provided in the form of an ingame token that is consumed to add Game Time to your account, and can thus be freely traded or gifted to your friends ingame!" is a RMT enabler! I dont know what form of curency of H&H uses, but be it gold, logs, items; they will be traded in ratio for tokens, therefore enabling USA players exploit players from countries with weak money. Everyone not using $, € or £ will be turned into slaves, as 30$ for them might be 110PLN (which is a price of AAA game at release and requires 2-3 days of work around the minimal wage), so for them it will be faster to grind ingame goodies. This might be a good thing, but depending on the Token-Ingame money ratios it can take so much of the player time it will be not fun to play. Smaller and cheaper tokens propably would be good for this purpose. But remember, that by RMT enabling you are connecting your game economics deeply with real world economics. It could even turn into RMT problems (If the game got really popular, which is my best wish).
What really shows the lack of thought, testing and economic stupidity is the fact, that 1month subscription is cheaper than 1month game time. Really clever. Fix it asap, baka. Additionally, I have to point out that the free game time looks REPULSING. Most players would like to test the game before playing. But, upon seeing such ridiculously small amount of time (and that goddam small regen) I felt "are those guys fucking kidding me?". And closed the browser to forget the game. Sadly (for you, dear reader, whom had to endure such a wall of text) Im a type of person who likes to vent out. But I bet, many players turned their heads and went away. It gives a feel of "so, this game is f2p with premium" and later shatters that positive opinion with unplayable time. Not good in the basic customer psychology.
I understand that making money is a fine goal, as it allows for improvements of the product (and therefore improves lives both of the creator and the consumer), but I think that the route taken is simply... wrong. MMORPG sites all around the world are spreading the "pay to play is dying out" vibe. Pay to play looks very restrictive. There are many ways of making money and they include;
1. Dont ever think about labor points. Never, ever. It ruined archeage, it will ruin any crafting game.
2. Vanity items. Not only occassional hats. This is ridiculous. Where are my sweet robes, pets, wings, flip-flops, pink-tinted windows, naked lady statues, decorations, auras, nickname colours, titles... There is so much to sell! Many games have more content in the item shop than in game. Because it brings profits. There are three ways to implement this; character bound items (bad idea, nobody will want to buy them as they will be too easily lost), account bound items (good idea) in two variations; pernament and time based. Hard to tell which is better, but economy says that by taking too much you might actually decrease your profit. (Laffer curve imho aplies to pricing in shops too). Maybe more stuff in "character creation" (I dont even know if this game has any!) also is a great idea? I know people who would pay to rock an afro.
3. Boosts - generally a bad idea, as it gives the pay2win notion to players.
4. Premium features; building big stuff, beying a mayor, using some more interesting functions could require a token or premium subscription. As long as it won't be too resrictive, most players won't lose much and the few people would have to pay a small fee, which propably could be "crowdfunded" (many games do this with guilds for example, even 100$ is not much for a 50 people guild, everyone threw in 2$ and its fine).
5. Premium lands (Ever heard of PACC content in tibia?). It might divide the community a bit (especially, if they will be bound to wealthy subscriptions), but time based tokens allowing exploration, why not?
6. Premium servers. A bit controversial matter, as it would cause all the f2p scum (Im not implying f2p players are scum, Im implying trolls are mostly f2p) gather on the f2p server making it unplayable.

Many MMORPGS make all their money from vanity and stuff and they live. You just need a playerbase big enough; which can be achieved by proper management, marketing and community care. Why this game isn't on kickstarter or steam?
Feel free to discuss, criticize (me!), think and write.
Saival
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Critique of actual development decisions and the pay mod

Postby DeathToSuperman » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:05 pm

I like what you have to say, but I'll draw the line on J&L being geniuses. They are fallible humans like the rest of us.
User avatar
DeathToSuperman
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:42 pm

Re: Critique of actual development decisions and the pay mod

Postby Danno » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:12 pm

Meanwhile, 720 hours for 15$ dollars look really good. Even 720 hours for 30$ looks good. Its not even half a dollar for an hour. Marketing. We can assume that 720hours would last for 3-4 months, so it makes almost a ten dollar per month. It sounds much more player friendly (also it is much more player friendly).

$15 doesn't give you 720 hours, it lets you play for 1 month (just like a subscription).

A very common misconception. I dunno why they haven't removed the $15 "game time" thing, it's only confusing people.
RIP
User avatar
Danno
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:21 am
Location: Canada

Re: Critique of actual development decisions and the pay mod

Postby Denkar » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:18 pm

this is the one of the stupidest threads I've read, next to the one saying they should sell items and stats for money

this isn't Tibia, fuck off
Denkar
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:08 pm

Re: Critique of actual development decisions and the pay mod

Postby Danno » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:20 pm

Denkar wrote:this is the one of the stupidest threads I've read, next to the one saying they should sell items and stats for money

this isn't Tibia, fuck off

1. Find threads with walls of text detailing how to fix the game.
2. Call it stupid and tell the OP to fuck off.

You sure trolled us. GG all.
RIP
User avatar
Danno
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:21 am
Location: Canada

PreviousNext

Return to Critique & Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Claude [Bot] and 62 guests