Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Postby dank_memes » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:43 am

Let me start by saying that I'm a complete newbie to the H&H scene. I stumbled upon the game about a week ago and then this happened. Ooh, drama.

Anyway, I was looking at the subscription model Jorb & Loftar and started to ask myself a question: is it possible to monetize a game with such a small, cult following?

Let's start with some quick but reasonable assumptions. While I haven't been here long, I've generally been told that that the amount of regular players classic H&H gets has been hovering at around 50-100.

Let's be very optimistic, and hypothesize that completely ignoring the P2P controversy, the Hafen launch has been successful in doubling these numbers by drawing additional attention to the game. We're now sitting at ~200 regulars who play the game on a daily basis.

Now let's look at our revenue. A quick Google search reveals that mobile apps have a roughly 2% free-to-paid user conversion. Subscribtion and microtransaction-based PC games, however, report anything from 10 to 25%. Let's again be optimistic, and assume that user conversion is very good - 20% of players become monthly paid subscribers to Hafen (or slightly less, with slightly more engaging in smaller transactions - any other setup works fine).

Assuming everyone buys their game time 6 months at a time (again, shooting in the middle here), we get a gross revenue of 200 x 0.20 x 66.00 / 6, which equals roughly $440 USD per month (before taxes, but I don't even know if such a small revenue would get taxed).

So, what do we do with this?

Well, the $440 a month can easily cover any reasonable hosting costs a game this size would be expected to encounter (at least I believe, let me know if I've been misled). However, we're not simply speaking of covering hosting costs here; both Jorb and Loftar have repeatedly hinted they aim to eventually sustain themselves from the project.

The average monthly income in Sweden is at around 25 000 SEK, which translates to approximately $3000 USD. Assuming Jorb and Loftar don't shack up together (they might, I don't know), you're splitting the income in half - the $220 they both get leaves them earning 7% of the average monthly Swedish salary Keep in mind programmers' salaries in Sweden can go up to 32 000 SEK-38 000 SEK/mo, and for the sake of this example we're assuming nothing is being spent to cover server costs.

Here is why I think this isn't really reasonable:
  • Unless I've downplayed the population metrics (feel free to correct me), I've been excessively generous on numbers, and we're still left at a potential revenue averaging barely seven percent of the Swedish average income for two developers.
  • Turning H&H in a self-sufficient, full-time job for Jorb and Loftar would involve increasing the playerbase by 1400% of what it currently is.
  • Jorb & Loftar stated that they wished to increase development time on H&H, which would imply them working on the project fulltime - subscriptions are implied to mean "better updates".
  • A large part of the game's playerbase lives in countries which a much lower average income, such as Russia, Poland and Brazil, and will not be able to afford subscriptions.
  • The game has already been available for the public for several years, and we've already seen the population metrics of the Hafen update (along with the angry mob P2P brought along). It's highly unlikely for the game to gain significant additional traction at this point.

Finally, you can change the model all you wish, but keep in mind a price drop from 15$/mo to 5$/mo would require the number of paid users to triple just to keep the same 7% income.
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Re: Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Postby HarryDresden » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:49 am

To be fair, it's a better start than making nothing on the game, and as more income flows towards them, we'll get better updates. I'm looking mainly for a stable build, and have no problem supporting devs of the game I love. I think they need to simplify the monetization system, but in the end, some cash is much more helpful than no cash.
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Re: Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Postby joojoo1975 » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:50 am

most starts of worlds had 3-8 times the players

the start of world 7 had over a 1000 players which lasted for weeks

I just got home from work and say the player base was over 600 players before the crash.


not taking sides yet just giving some numbers I remember.
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Re: Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Postby BangPow » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:52 am

its far more then 50-100, more like 200-600 on average.
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Re: Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Postby Arcanist » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:54 am

Online population was typically around 150-300 but active players were (according to the devs) around 2000
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Re: Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Postby Cece » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:57 am

considering many good mmorpgs have dropped the suscription plan and shifted over cash shop i feel that this isn't going to end well.

it's not only pricy but unfair to the casual players or players that are inactive due to work, i also do not expect any improvements just because they were paid a little bit, they clearly stated that they have a job so this isn't even their main focus.

I've never bothered suscribing in a game but i have spent alot of money on cash shop for the cosmetics and premium services, i just don't dig the whole pay every month for game time when im already using my time playing a game instead of another game that is free.
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Re: Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Postby dank_memes » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:57 am

HarryDresden wrote:To be fair, it's a better start than making nothing on the game, and as more income flows towards them, we'll get better updates. I'm looking mainly for a stable build, and have no problem supporting devs of the game I love. I think they need to simplify the monetization system, but in the end, some cash is much more helpful than no cash.
The problem is that there is no indication whatsoever that the game will grow significantly in the future - something it would need to do to become a sustainable source of income for the devs.

BangPow wrote:its far more then 50-100, more like 200-600 on average.
Even doubling, tripling, or quadrupling the pop numbers with the excessively optimistic estimates I posted above doesn't bring the devs close to making bank with this game. The most likely outcome, however, will be that the pop numbers will tank as many people are being put off by the switch over to freemium/p2p. Also, I don't know if you're including bots in these numbers, but keep in mind a lot of Ruskies/BRs/etc won't be able to afford a subscription.
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Re: Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Postby TeckXKnight » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:00 am

Depending on how we're defining active playerbase, but it's likely closer to 20,000 users. Mind you that it's not 20,000 online at one time, but throughout a month that's about how many unique players log on.
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Re: Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Postby painhertz » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:01 am

No offense but you don't understand enough of the game to comment on it. the low pop #'s are because the game hasn't been actively developed for 3 plus years.... (The old version) that being said, with regular updates the norm pop is closer to 600-900 and that was for a game who's graphics were back in the 90's and with tons of bugs and questionable game play, they've obviously put a TON of work into this new version so I for one am on board for at least the next year presuming they don't run off to make a different game, which i doubt.
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Re: Why the new P2P system is essentially worthless for devs

Postby Backwoodsman » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:02 am

most of the people finding this game have absolutley no idea how to play because they werent in on orignal haven. it would be hard to sustain the player base as is with all of the changes that dont really make sense. now you take into consideration th p2p, good fucking luck. the people that do know how to play now do not want to and the noobs are too oblivious and will either get bored fast or question paying for a game that they dont even fully understand because once again, they didnt get into haven the orignal
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