Some thoughts on Siege

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Some thoughts on Siege

Postby overtyped » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:21 pm

Asgaroth22 wrote:
overtyped wrote:Jorb won't introduce any reincarnate catch up mechanism because he doesn't know how the game works.
If you grind for 6 months and die, you aren't catching up, and you won't have the will to do so.

This. If the game doesn't offer some kind of catching-up mechanics, sieges are going to be a fail, because:
-Either both faction's characters will be killed quickly (if you want to encourage being logged on the same time and forcing them to fight)
-or both factions end up using disposable alts, which won't be fun, just tedious.

He won't even comment on my awesome idea, viewtopic.php?f=48&t=45803
because he can see no fault with it. Coward!
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Re: Some thoughts on Siege

Postby _Gunnar » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:25 pm

Avu wrote:I need to think about this. A lot. Things that come to mind. Vaults how does this new system make it less apealling to vault? Production centers have always been vulnerable to raids because they are tempting a lot harder to defend than a vault a lot harder to build and once they are destroyed it's basically game over. That's not fun.


Well in this system its pretty hard to actually *destroy* a production center (assuming that the thingy about cows also applies to smelters, kilns, etc) while to defeat the purpose of a vault "all" you have to do is break the wall and kill the criminal scum inside (the latter of which presumably would still be easy)

I am pretty worried about hermits sanity when they are under siege from a large village and have to repair walls every few hours; also the balancing of this system is going to be really hard. It seems like its kindof unstable, meaning that any slight change makes either offense or defense really favoured.

Like Avu said need to think about this a lot, as well as maybe get more details...
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Re: Some thoughts on Siege

Postby Avu » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:29 pm

You mentioned losing is fun. Well it's fun in dwarf fortress where you're at most a few days into a fortress and then the hordes overun your shit and then you start over and the world is reset Well when you die in haven 6 months in everyone else is still 6 months ahead. The will to rebuild shit that will never quite be as good as the other peoples is rarely there. Alts and a well setup town will keep the bullshit permadeath pain to bearable levels for character loss but once you lose your town it's game over. This game is incredibly incredibly high time investment if you play it anywhere near how it needs to be played to be competitive. (I know you have no clue about this jorb, come live in a town spiral metal, build a town wall line, do silk for the entire town, do flax for banners, have 70 animals to have enough maws for a nice cheese production).

I mean I'm really curious who here thinks sieges are more important than endgame pve goals? Or more important than kingdoms and giving a reason to interact peacefully with hermits, or more important than fixing the annoyance of no pathfinding, or realizing bots are here and they are always better than players for all the grindy actions in this game? So who are you?
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Re: Some thoughts on Siege

Postby pedorlee » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:33 pm

Once the ram is settled the defenders have X time to log in, if they dont log siege can start. - This way ramming someone inactive can be relatively fast.

If the defenders are online or they log in that X time a new siege stage beggins. Then, here, you can introduce those phases where the siege goes on.
Sieges can be something dynamic if you introduce defensive buildings and people can "ride" them. The same goes with the ones sieging.
You could "play" with events in time to make this possible.
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Re: Some thoughts on Siege

Postby Patchouli_Knowledge » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:34 pm

It needs to be possible to remove a player from any location, and thus it needs to be possible to force fundamental conflict.

So that would mean that the faction location and structure should be more dynamic. That would mean you need to put less emphasis on structure Q as it will be destroyed during clashes and make it easier to build them especially defensive structures.

War and siege should be a collection of informal, localized states, rather than formal and global. Formal states create distinct interfaces between states that are prone to manipulations, workarounds and exploits. The game devolves to a game about those states, rather than a game about siege warfare.


I do not think there is any form of formality within the conflicts that we have at the moment especially when the target of attacks are actually randomized.

That players actually make progress in a siege is not too important. What is important is the ongoing threat of being able to do so if not prevented or counteracted, and the ability to always/often act toward furthering this goal. As long as both sides have to/are able to continously take meaningful action on account of the siege, it does not matter whether either side actually breaks the other, but in fact a protracted siege is highly desirable. This in itself creates activity and a sense of action and purpose.


One thing I am slightly concerned with is that people that haven't subbed will be forced to use all of their available time to fend off a siege just to lose because the attacker that are subbed can essentially win the game of attrition, unless this is the intention.

Losing should ideally be fun. If the process of losing is drawn out over a longer period of time, it can potentially be fun.


(unless I misunderstood something) This is where I disagree with the most. This isn't the same as Dwarf Fortress, your adversary isn't some random factor that the computer come up with, nor some chain of event causing some drama within your creation; your adversaries are people. In some instances some of these conflicts are caused purely by vendetta and mostly of the time, the loser isn't really having fun when the winner is smearing it in their face for all its worth. The other issue with losing is that it sets you back tremendously while your adversaries advanced if they manage to seize your resource, while your character is now a shiny trout in a tank full of barracudas; this is the nature of a permadeath survival multiplayer game. This is regardless of the fact whether a siege is blitzkrieg or prolonged.

Sieges should be subject to a great deal of inertia.


Definitely, the degree of winner/loser is basically a boolean at the moment but getting that to work is pretty tricky unless one can somehow localize the damage that an attacker can do while the defender has to regain that back. This also should reduce (not eliminate) the viability of casual raids where you can simply faceroll over a few villages and get easy loot.

This however runs across into one problem. What if someone decides to make an onion layers of walls or the traditional "Sodom" plot style city layout? The attacker will end up attacking through layers of layers of brick walls and not actually get anything from it until they hit a good spot. It's digging mounds and mounds of dirt to try to find gold, except the dirt is shooting arrows at you and trying to stab you.


I want to bring one thing into this as we speak. Most structure in the game are pretty flimsy compare to the defensive ones. It does make sense that defensive structure should be tough to drive back invaders but when you compare the important ones to a gate or wall, Big Bad Wolf doesn't need to to huff and puff to blow it down, he can just sneeze.
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Re: Some thoughts on Siege

Postby loftar » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:42 pm

Patchouli_Knowledge wrote:I do not think there is any form of formality within the conflicts that we have at the moment

Indeed. It was more in contrast with such things as "declaring wars" or, for that matter, Salem's Trial by Fire, or similar things.
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Re: Some thoughts on Siege

Postby Haba » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:47 pm

Haven has quite a big fundamental, existential problem. It strives to be (or at least likes to think itself as) a hardcore permadeath PVP game. Yet PVP is something that most of the players dread and try to avoid as much as possible.

Frankly, I don't think this combination can work:
a.) extreme amounts of time invested
b.) permadeath free-for-all PVP
c.) combat result not determined by player skill

If I look at sieges in this context, then sieges would be something I'd avoid by any means necessary. Even if that means building five-layered brickwalls or separate vault villages in four separate directions. Trust me, when the stakes are this high, people will do anything.

Naturally, normal people will look at the whole thing and think it's insane and move on. But they already do that so...
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Re: Some thoughts on Siege

Postby venatorvenator » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:49 pm

jorb wrote:On that note, why hasn't this been more of a thing in Haven as it is?

It is a thing for many of us. We had 4 wall layers last world and an unintended consequence was that our safety didn't depend on having lots of active people. And I know that at least one other village had 5 walls.

By the way the system seems good, I'd be ok with it.

However, this is a good point:
Avu wrote:I mean I'm really curious who here thinks sieges are more important than endgame pve goals? Or more important than kingdoms and giving a reason to interact peacefully with hermits

My impression is that you've been consistently steering the game in a way to please pvp'ers and I think that's wasted potential, if not just plain sad.
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Re: Some thoughts on Siege

Postby loftar » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:51 pm

Haba wrote:It strives to be (or at least likes to think itself as) a hardcore permadeath PVP game.

Just for the record, this is not true, at least not for my part. I don't think of Haven as some kind of e-sports game primarily. PvP and siege is just one necessary and interesting mode of a greater set of social interactions. It's pretty important for many other interactions that it works okay (which is why there's often a lot of focus on it), but I certainly don't think of it as the primary game mode or anything.
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Re: Some thoughts on Siege

Postby warrri » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:56 pm

loftar wrote:
Patchouli_Knowledge wrote:I do not think there is any form of formality within the conflicts that we have at the moment

Indeed. It was more in contrast with such things as "declaring wars" or, for that matter, Salem's Trial by Fire, or similar things.


Haven has one formalitiy right now. The 24h timer. All you want to do is split that into ten different smaller timers. I dont exactly see where the change in gameplay comes from with the proposed ideas?
Right now you build a ram and you camp it for 24h straight to prevent it from being destroyed. You take shifts and have a skype alarm or whatever you want.

With your proposed changes, you camp the ram and bash the wall multiple times, they can repair against it but ultimately the ram does more damage than you can repair (with the numbers your proposed). As long as there is no way to bash the ram remotely, there is no change in gameplay. The attacking faction still has to camp and defend the ram for the full time and the defending faction has to destroy the ram.

But as Avu said, the problem is fundamental here. Once the wall falls it is game over. There is no coming back when your 10th generation livestock, raised for weeks/months, is killed. When your spiraled tools are destroyed. When your character dies.
Last edited by warrri on Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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