Potential fix for the archery system

[The_Common_Cold]

With all the recent controversy about the archery system, which has split opinions between people who are upset about the balance of the combat system and people who don't want to see hunting affected by an issue they aren't really involved in, I thought it would be a good time to put forward an idea that came to me. I'll start with a couple basic points that I think most people here can agree on:

1. The aim bar for archery loads too quickly and makes it too easy for archers (especially archers on horseback) to hit melee warriors with little to no danger to themselves
2. There is no way to counter the large amounts of damage caused by arrows as there is no real way to block them except dodging around like a chicken with your head cut off praying you don't get hit

The solution for #1 is relatively simple, if not necessarily popular: increase the time required to aim by X amount. #2, however, is a little trickier, and there are several ways it could be handled. The first method calls for simply reducing the damage dealt by a bow and arrow. I'm not personally a fan of this method. Another way this could be handled is by providing melee players some method of blocking the arrow's attack. This is where we come to my idea:

We simply integrate archery into the current melee system. What I mean by this is that defensive melee moves, i.e shield up, zig zag, even parry, have a chance at blocking an arrow. For example, shield up would have a 50% chance at blocking an incoming arrow, using the same method where shield up has a block weight of 3*Melee. So if you had, say, 200 melee, there would be a 50/50 chance of you blocking up to 600 damage with that one block. Each defensive move would have a different percentage chance to block the arrow, i.e. parry would have like a 1% chance to block 200 damage (still assuming you have 200 melee). I don't know the max damage a bow can do, but even if it's lower than the max damage possibly absorbed by the 'shield up' block, there is still a 50% chance of the arrow hitting it's target.

Note: This idea is by no means perfect. The percentages I used above as examples are just that, examples. Feel free to comment with your thoughts on this and any tweaks you think would improve the general concept.

[Jacobian123]

+1, archery needs to be blended with melee to make it fair for everyone.

[Archiplex]

Instead, there should simply be a defensive maneuver that defends against ranged attacks specifically, and not melee attacks. It should bestow a large cooldown and not last long - Shield up should also simply block MM and be consumed by it, or at least, Shield Up should reduce archery damage by a percentage (AFTER armor reduction) if it is up when the arrow impacts.

RNG based "take damage or not" is a bad mechanic, forcing archery to deal with the normal melee mechanics will make it useless (if every defense blocks it, that is).

As for damage in general, i disagree about archery's damage being too high. Melee damage, when fully penetrating defenses, is much higher than archery. Damage in general should just be lowered, and instead of archery losing damage, there should be more ways to avoid it.

As it is, merely placing a stockpile in front of you makes you immune to archery damage, any wall item or building does as well, it's not difficult to defend AGAINST it- but it is difficult to gain grounds on an archer if they are skilled.

Aim speed is fine, in my opinion. Aiming while moving is a bit silly, especially on horsetop where it should definitely reduce much faster and to a lower floor. Damage should be looked at overall alongside melee and armor/armor values.

[Potjeh]

The main difference between animals and hearthlings is that hearthlings wear armor. So if you want to nerf PvP archery without affecting hunting the obvious solution is buffing armor vs arrows, perhaps by making it reduce damage by a percentage rather than a flat number. Folding archery into melee just complicates an already complicated problem.

[shubla]

2. There is no way to counter the large amounts of damage caused by arrows as there is no real way to block them except dodging around like a chicken with your head cut off praying you don't get hit

This doesnt even work if archer got anykind of timing skill.

[Hasta]

I believe we should wait for

We have spent a fair amount of time discussing/gearing up for some work on the combat system, which we will try to implement for our patch next week, barring divine inspiration to the contrary. Generally speaking our ambition is to try to find a happy medium between the present combat system and Legacy's combat system.

to happen, since "the next week" is, well, today; and then resume this discussion in the light of new features/mechanics that are implemented (if that will, in fact, happen). Otherwise a lot of valid arguments spoken from combat experience may be rendered pointless with combat system 2.0.

[The_Common_Cold]

Instead, there should simply be a defensive maneuver that defends against ranged attacks specifically, and not melee attacks. It should bestow a large cooldown and not last long - Shield up should also simply block MM and be consumed by it, or at least, Shield Up should reduce archery damage by a percentage (AFTER armor reduction) if it is up when the arrow impacts.

Requiring a specific defense against MM simply causes more problems for melee warriors in the current system as you'd have to either use 6 cards or replace one of the 5 you're using in the deck. Giving a large cooldown wouldn't work either, as archers can aim and reload pretty quickly. Either way, you're going to get roasted next time you get into a fight, so no one would use it anyways.

RNG based "take damage or not" is a bad mechanic, forcing archery to deal with the normal melee mechanics will make it useless (if every defense blocks it, that is).

As for damage in general, i disagree about archery's damage being too high. Melee damage, when fully penetrating defenses, is much higher than archery. Damage in general should just be lowered, and instead of archery losing damage, there should be more ways to avoid it.

Generally, I dislike RNG based mechanics as well. However, I think in this context the idea makes sense, as it's not a "take damage or not" mechanic as you suggest. It simply allows melee warriors to have some protection while still allowing archers to have a chance to bypass blocks for a KO hit, creating a little more balance in combat. And in this system a high stat archer would be able to punch through the blocks of a lower stat melee warrior. I don't think I said archery's damage is too high. There's just no way to block it. You point out that melee when penetrating defenses does more damage. With archery, there are no defenses to penetrate. Addressing that issue is the point of this thread.

The main difference between animals and hearthlings is that hearthlings wear armor. So if you want to nerf PvP archery without affecting hunting the obvious solution is buffing armor vs arrows, perhaps by making it reduce damage by a percentage rather than a flat number. Folding archery into melee just complicates an already complicated problem.

I feel like that doesn't quite fix the issue, though. While it's a good idea, and probably one that should be implemented, there should still be a way to block arrows, as armor would only be able to cover so much of the damage.

[Granger]

Guys, let's wait for what the combat change will bring?

[DDDsDD999]

We're working on combat, but won't have anything finished tonight. Next patch delayed until hopefully next week.

[Ysh]

Guys, let's wait for what the combat change will bring?

We're working on combat, but won't have anything finished tonight. Next patch delayed until hopefully next week.

What if jorb delays patch because he is want to read what people can do posting in this thread to see if these ideas are better?