Feedback: Farming

[LadyGoo]

I have been doing both selection and bulk farming in this and the last world.

Strengths:
- Automatic harvest and planting is a big improvement in comparison to legacy. However, they do not address the issue of farming bots completely. People still prefer to use the farming bots, since harvesting and replanting consumes a lot of stamina (increases the need to click for drinking) + the majority of the bots have auto-planting of the highest quality crop.
- Plant types diversity. Potentially, it could benefit trades and the craft (ex. hemp and linen clothes).
- Storing the seeds inside of barrels, instead of pouches (legacy).
- Stockpiles and loading them into the troughs
- Carrots and flax affect the industry and PvP
- The trellis system has a good potential: no need for re-planting grapes and the pepper
- Requiring multiple beehives per field allows to harvest more wax and honey + the legacy bug with the wax quality has been fixed.

Weaknesses:
- The farming system is the most boring and tiresome part of the game. The majority of the people try to avoid doing it, since they find a very little joy in spending hours on something that has no immediate reward.
- Autoharvest and autoplanting are not enough to beat botting.
- Selection has turned into "harvest one crop, plant it. If the quality increase is less than 3, repeat the process 30 minutes later". This system is even worse than the random quality increase chance like in legacy. The new system does not bring any joy or intrigue to the farming process.
- The trellis system has a good potential, but nowadays the trellis-based crops are greatly avoided by everyone: you cannot autoharvest or autoplant trellises; you have to destroy the outdated plant and re-plant the new one; you cannot inspect the plants on trellises and make sure your selection process is fine. Moreover, the trellis-based plants are easily replaceable by other food/ hard to manage/or you do not need them in big quantities (hops).
- You need to select only flax, carrots, grapes, beetroots, poppy and hemp. Flax and hemp are used in craft + customization + industry (herbalist tables, looms and etc.), carrots as the most fast-growing crop provide you with high quality wax and food for animals, grapes are needed for vinegar (cheese and jewelery), beetroots are used for the feeding troughs and easy to make salad that gives constitution, poppy for curios and the seeds. Other crops have a very little need. Pepper is too hard to produce and has no meaning when you do not need huge fep boost for your food. You already have it by eating the salt and using good tables. Therefore, it is easier to spam-eat food, rather than boost each slice.
Hop is used for the beer, that is not consumed in the big quantities as in legacy (it used to fill your hunger bar). I have spent a few hours on making 10 barrels of beer, that will last my village for a couple of years. Therefore, there is no need for hop selection.
Lettuce, cucumber, pumpkins, pea are easily replaceable by other types of food that do not require them as an ingredient.
Tobacco has no use at all. It used to wear off your travel weariness in legacy, but it is no the case nowadays. Therefore, the projects like "Tobacco plantation" have no chance to survive.
Hemp buds do not give the fep boost, therefore there is no need to time the hemp growth stages.
Onions do not need to be high quality, since you do not need the food to have the high quality (salt and tables).
Barley does not need to be high-quality as well. The dough quality could be upgraded by using high quality coal for ovens, the straw dolls quality can be upgraded by the strings.
- The crops give only 1 unit for feeding troughs. As a result, noobs and the people without bots cannot compete with larger factions in terms of animal breeding and flock sizes. You will need 2-5 feeding troughs a day to be able to have more animals. That is 6-8 fields of beetroots 20x20 tiles. Each of them require around 30 minutes to harvest and re-plant.

Opportunities:
- The farming could be automized and let the noobs to be able to compete with greater factions. The village sizes will increase, people will be less inclined to leave the game due to boredom and feeling like hafen is the second job.
- The selection process could be revised. The removal of the need to spend a few hours a day on making sure that your plants will grow for 3+ (harvest one crop, plant it. If the quality increase is less than 3, repeat the process 30 minutes later) would be nice.
- The revised and automized trellises could make the trellis-based crops more valuable and more widely-used.
+ removing the need to destroy the older plant (wine+pepper)
- The unused crops could become more valuable by implementing new gilds, curiosities, event he industry elements that use them.
- The unused and used crops could have a greater food unit value to feed the animals. As a result, noobs could have bigger villages and compete with the rest of the world in terms of quality.
- Farming could be bound to the seasons and people would value it more if they would be able to plant and harvest only at certain weeks of the months (and be free for another 2 weeks from daily farming). But it needs to be balanced well.

Threats:
- In case neglected, farming will remain as a secret population killer: you have to do it daily and spend a few hours a day only on farming; a lot of things like animals or industry rely on some crops;
- Villages with bots will prosper, while smaller ones without bots will feel helpless and may give up on the idea of competing;
- People will not bother on selecting the lower-implact crops and prefer to focus on the key ones;
- Trellis-based crops will be planted only once for the mass production of low quality wine, beer and vinegar (you do not really need high quality drinks to reduce the satiations).

[Enjoyment]

As always - good thread, which will go down the topic 'cause nobody cares of it. "Ded gaem, moar peeveepee"... THough I should admit, it's always a pleasure to read your posts and know that someone is bothering about gameplay improvements.
But, I don't want this comment look like "We all love Freya", so I will state some of my thoughts:
1. I don't think there is a problem in

- Villages with bots will prosper, while smaller ones without bots will feel helpless and may give up on the idea of competing;

You forgot to mention some moments:
- Access to botting (due to non-public clients) via beign in big-faction is a problem little bigger than just farming, so I doubt it could be used as an arguement.
- Why should small villages be able to produce as high-q stuf as big villages, to compete with them? As I've thought, the big villages takes big risks of hiring wrong person in order to push their production, so small villages (free of that risks) shouldn't be able to compete with them.
- I don't think that farmer-member of well-organized village is suffering from boreness - it's his role, picked by himself. Well, if you created a 30-person village, where 29 is "get me the enemy - I will tear it (but craft me good armor and sword; prepare me good meals, so I can cap my sdtats; tame me a good horse and find me a foe) - It's not a problem of the game - it's a problem of that village Lawspeaker. In other words, Most of "true farmers' living in small villages and playing their role don't find it boring...
That's it. Only few my own flaws in almost flawless post of H&H Godess.

[LadyGoo]

As always - good thread, which will go down the topic 'cause nobody cares of it. "Ded gaem, moar peeveepee"...

Thanks. Well, I see how some of my concerns have been adressed in the updates over the last 6 months (silk, charisma, curio issues, siege, people not going outside and etc.). So as long as this keeps happening, I'm content.

- Why should small villages be able to produce as high-q stuf as big villages, to compete with them?

By competing I have also meant the quantity. For a large village a loss of 1 warrior character is nothing. They can rebuild the character in a short period of time + they can afford having multiple resourse-consuming characters at a time.
But for a smaller one it means losing the hunter, protector and etc. for months. It is a lot of effort and time wasted, while larger villages could just harvest huge fields once or twice to get their characters capped in constitution, charisma and agility by making "Red-Shread Salad" or "Honeybuns" and "Brodgar Rings".

As I've thought, the big villages takes big risks of hiring wrong person in order to push their production, so small villages (free of that risks) shouldn't be able to compete with them.

Bigger villages risk nothing, since they do not need to hire a person who does the farming. For instance, I am solely farming everything needed for my village.

- I don't think that farmer-member of well-organized village is suffering from boreness - it's his role, picked by himself.

There are people from my village that used to be farmers in legacy. However, they dislike the current system so much, that they prefer to not to touch it even with a 30 tile long stick.

In other words, Most of "true farmers' living in small villages and playing their role don't find it boring...

As long as they keep it small. Like having 10x10 fields. However, once you will want to keep more than a couple of mares and 3 cows to boost your production, you'll face the problem.

[pedorlee]

Great post.
Hire that brain devs.
+1

[Enjoyment]

For instance, I am solely farming everything needed for my village.

Well, if you created a 30-person village, where 29 is "get me the enemy - I will tear it (but craft me good armor and sword; prepare me good meals, so I can cap my sdtats; tame me a good horse and find me a foe) - It's not a problem of the game - it's a problem of that village Lawspeaker

That's exactly what I was talked about - If you manage a huge village by yourself, spending a couple of hours on each-days duties, than maybe you should reconsider your village management - hire a couple of passionate farmers, miners, hunters etc. so you wouldn't have to do it by yourself. And in that case you may feel yourself less bored and more concentrated on bigger deals (like this post).

[LadyGoo]

For instance, I am solely farming everything needed for my village.

Well, if you created a 30-person village, where 29 is "get me the enemy - I will tear it (but craft me good armor and sword; prepare me good meals, so I can cap my sdtats; tame me a good horse and find me a foe) - It's not a problem of the game - it's a problem of that village Lawspeaker

That's exactly what I was talked about - If you manage a huge village by yourself, spending a couple of hours on each-days duties, than maybe you should reconsider your village management - hire a couple of passionate farmers, miners, hunters etc. so you wouldn't have to do it by yourself. And in that case you may feel yourself less bored and more concentrated on bigger deals (like this post).

Nu, you have missed my point. I do not need them since bots can do it.
Whereas anyone who would like to do something at the same scale will inevitably get bored and annoyed.

[Enjoyment]

Nu, you have missed my point. I do not need them since bots can do it.

As I've said - you're talking more about boting, not farming. And most of your suggestions have even more bot-potential (as you stated). And you haven't any suggestion how to stop botting in this thread. And I doubt anyone can. So maybe you could just leave the race and start playing without botting. Yeap, you'll loose your primacy, definitely have more painful advancement, but hearing you say - "bots are Evil, though I won't stop use them - I do need the advantage they provide" - it's not like people fighting against something. Let's clearify it a bit:
Imagine the w10, where YOU, yes you, the famous LadyGoo, will create a forum-blog like Em's or Dani's, playing back again as a hermit. Not as developed hermit as a goal, but you could "show" (mostly as dramatic pre-made scenes) the process of building a world-wide faction. You could show all the aspects of current H&H gameplay on your own "pure expirience" - yeap, it will be false, but very demonstrative. And I assume, this kind of spreading your thoughts among community may have a result you gonna surprise. What do you think? Could you try it? Or "too bored/busy"?
P.S. I've read your post all over i-net and know how capable you're to do it
UPD: Really, if you will do this experiment and even post it on some Russin resource - I will take all the cares of translating/formating and promoting of it...

Whereas anyone who would like to do something at the same scale will inevitably get bored and annoyed.

You know, you're the first one to say both this words in one sentence. And this is perfectly shows H&H "problems" - there is always 3 types of people on this (C&I) thread:
- Absoulutely Satisfied - I assume it's mostly newcomers being filled with all this H&H magic. We should thank them for their new blood.
- "QoLers" (that's one you called "annoyed" - the're basically satisfied with the game, but want some aspects to be improved) -Those can be small (like jordancoles with he's infinite "more stockpiles" thread (I love him, so no offence)) or a big one (like you)
- "Bored" - they're suggesting "nerf archery", "revamp siege", "return palibashers", etc. And my opinion - J&L shouldn't gave a fuck on those! Sadly, they still do...

[Grog]

I pretty much agree with everything Enjoyment wrote. Will add some personal flaver (read: text) when I find time for it.

[LadyGoo]

Nu, you have missed my point. I do not need them since bots can do it.

As I've said - you're talking more about boting, not farming. And most of your suggestions have even more bot-potential (as you stated). And you haven't any suggestion how to stop botting in this thread.

The bots are already advanced enough. The new changes will not make much of a difference for the bot owners. Look, you can do everything by one click, some other guys cannot and have to do 10 clicks. After the new patch they can do that in 2 clicks. Would it affect your max. effective botting? Not at all. Would it affect the others who will do 5 times less clicking - obviously, yes.
I also do not like when people say "stop" or "ban" botting instead of curing the underlying problem. The reason why people bot is because the farming system is tiresome and boring. If you want to compete with other factions, you have to bot as well. I am suggesting to erase that inequality by implementing some level of farm-botting to the game. This is my solution.

So maybe you could just leave the race and start playing without botting.

I also hate when people say something like "oh, you should stop the crazy race to the end-game content and do not complain about having nothing to do", "the game has enough content, the problem is in you, 600 people that have quit the game", "or anything else that blames the game flaws on the players".
My real-life profession is related to design and human behaviour as well. We do not blame people and pass all the responsibility to them, but adapt our design according to the users and the human nature. J&Lo also have stated several times that they do not like blaming things on the players.
I am saying: "Some groups of players have the advantage because of the quite bad in-game mechanic. To erase that advantage, provide the same opportunity for everyone". Analogue, no-one is a superman, if everyone has the superman powers.

Imagine the w10, where YOU, yes you, the famous LadyGoo, will create a forum-blog like Em's or Dani's, playing back again as a hermit. Not as developed hermit as a goal, but you could "show" (mostly as dramatic pre-made scenes) the process of building a world-wide faction

Why should I? I can do the same by providing the feedback like in this topic. How is it any more efficient, except for entertainment for the forumers and more stress for me?

- "QoLers" (that's one you called "annoyed" - the're basically satisfied with the game, but want some aspects to be improved) -Those can be small (like jordancoles with he's infinite "more stockpiles" thread (I love him, so no offence)) or a big one (like you)
- "Bored" - they're suggesting "nerf archery", "revamp siege", "return palibashers", etc. And my opinion - J&L shouldn't gave a fuck on those! Sadly, they still do...

I can be classified as both Or all of them, since there are things I am content with. The ideal tester should embrace all the aspects of the game, IMHO: from PvP to farming and trade. Otherwise it will lead to heavily unbalanced suggestions, favoring either the peace-lover or war-mongers.

[Enjoyment]

The reason why people bot is because the farming system is tiresome and boring. If you want to compete with other factions, you have to bot as well. I am suggesting to erase that inequality by implementing some level of farm-botting to the game. This is my solution.

Let's just forget it - we have too different points of view on botting and ways to fight it, but it's ok - people are different.

I also hate when people say something like "oh, you should stop the crazy race to the end-game content and do not complain about having nothing to do", "the game has enough content, the problem is in you, 600 people that have quit the game", "or anything else that blames the game flaws on the players".

That's definitely wasn't I was talking about...

My real-life profession is related to design and human behaviour as well. We do not blame people and pass all the responsibility to them, but adapt our design according to the users and the human nature. J&Lo also have stated several times that they do not like blaming things on the players.
I am saying: "Some groups of players have the advantage because of the quite bad in-game mechanic. To erase that advantage, provide the same opportunity for everyone". Analogue, no-one is a superman, if everyone has the superman powers.

I don't think this is a good way to solve the problem, though I do understand your vision. But you've forgotten about gods. In abstract Marvel's World, yes, if anyone will become a Superman, than Superman won't be a man with super-power. But it will change the known world entirely. That's 'cause no any powers could be envolved. IN MARVEL'S WORLD.
But in H&H we do have gods. the Creators. And it's only their decisions how to balance the world. And I do believe that Path of Single Nerf is more preferably than Path of Mass Buff, so we won't become a MARVEL WORLD. That's only my point of view, but I would sleep better, knowing that you know about opinion of outsiders )

Why should I? I can do the same by providing the feedback like in this topic. How is it any more efficient, except for entertainment for the forumers and more stress for me?

Oh, you SHOULD NOT, but you CAN TRY... Who knows, maybe it will bring you some score. And, c'mon, you do like to create some big projects and communicate with unknown people - don't you? ) I won't blame you if you refuse, but will surely support you, if you will (though you do have my support nevertheless)

- "QoLers" (that's one you called "annoyed" - the're basically satisfied with the game, but want some aspects to be improved) -Those can be small (like jordancoles with he's infinite "more stockpiles" thread (I love him, so no offence)) or a big one (like you)
- "Bored" - they're suggesting "nerf archery", "revamp siege", "return palibashers", etc. And my opinion - J&L shouldn't gave a fuck on those! Sadly, they still do...
I can be classified as both Or all of them, since there are things I am content with. The ideal tester should embrace all the aspects of the game, IMHO: from PvP to farming and trade. Otherwise it will lead to heavily unbalanced suggestions, favoring either the peace-lover or war-mongers.

The only moment - I've never read of J&L do request proper "ideal tester" or "any tester at all"... It is sad, but true. (