New Combat Feedback

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

New Combat Feedback

Postby APXEOLOG » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:07 pm

Here i want to write some thoughts about new combat system. This is my opinion, if you think i am missing something, feel free to leave your opinion.

The things below are mostly suitable for 1v1 fights. The mass fights has another ideas and good moves, i will write them in special section

0. The Idea
After some tests i got this flow:
Start with the "spam" move to get at least 50% of the enemie's opening bar filled -> use "power" move to deal singificant damage. While doing this you should maintain your own opening bars below 50% (better to be at 20%) and do utility things (gain IPs for "power" moves, etc)
While opening bar is below ~50% your attacks will not deal that much damage to pay the price you spend to use it (IP cost, long CD, etc). I call this "The 50% rule" and it affects a lot of combat moves

There are few combat strategies i saw:
1. "Burst" - the part of the fight you stay in the defensive stances (Shield Up, Oak Stance), and gain IPs with Take Aim / Think. After you get 30+ IPs you goes into offensive stances (Bloodlust, Parry) and "burst" your enemy.
2. "Constant Pressure" - you always deal damage and increase openings. You don't have a lot of IPs at once but you also make your opponent spend time to cast defense moves and you also deals damage.

1. μ-symbol (Mu)
I love this idea, but after some testing it feels like you don't need to actually cut anything from your deck. For 30 points you can take 5 * 5/5 full moves + 5 * 1/1 maneuvers. This is enough for now (actually because lot's of the moves are too weak to be included), but i hope to have more good moves to actually take a hard decisions.

2. Restoration Moves
Image Artfull Evasion
Must have move. It is simply too good to avoid it. At 5/5 it gives 52.5% Openings Bar Reduction (simply Reduction) for 3 Initiative Points (simply IP) with 30 Cooldown Time (simply CD). With 5/5 Take Aim it takes 26*3 + 30 = 108 CD to cast it. Total value is 52.5% * 4 per 108 CD = 1.94 Restoration/CD
Let's compare it with any 5/5 Basic Defense (Dodge, Sidestep, Jump) - 30% Reduction with 30 CD. The value is 1 Restoration/CD, so the AE is twice better in terms of value and covers all 4 defense types
Conclusion: Better then any single-type defense and removes all bars. You also save a lot of deck points with it. Must be nerfed in my opinion. I don't like 4-type defenses at all, this is stupid.

Image Quick Dodge
Image Jump
Image Sidestep
Default single-type defense moves. This is strange for me that single-type defenses weaker then multu-type. Right now all theese moves useless because of AE.
Conclusion: I think signle-type moves should provide better restoration, for example 40% instead of 20%

Image Feighned dodge
I didn't test this move for a lot, i think it is reasonable in terms of value, but very situational. Only for green decks, only against green decks...
Conclusion: I don't think it is worth to spend a slot and points for it. The cooldown should be buffer a bit, from 35 to 30, or even 25.

Image Regain Composure
So this is just combined Quick Dodge and Jump. And it is worse against burst decks because of lower restoration values. While we have AE this move is useless.
Conclusion: I like the idea that 2-type restorations ususally have nice side effects. You should add some interesting effect for it

Image Dash
I love Dash. This is one of those moves that makes the fights intellectual. The ultimate defense against monodecks, but can be countered. Maybe a bit too fast at 5/5, i'd rather see it's cooldown at 60 instead of 45.
Conclusion: Love both idea and realisation, 10/10 skill.

Image Watch Its Moves
Nice idea but the value is simply too low. We have Take Aim for IPs, we have greater restoration moves for defense
Conclusion: I replaced this move after a single fight. The cooldown should buffed, or it should give 2 IPs

Image Yield Ground
Image Zig-Zag Ruse
This moves lookes interesting but while we have AE we don't need them
Conclusion: The problem is in AE, not in this moves (at least for now)

3. Attack Moves

Image Punch
Image Chop
Both Chop and Punch are great "spam" moves for the Green group. They are pretty similar, but you will want to use Chop with better gear and Punch with better UA. Actually i love this pair, you can spend some time to calculate the Attack Weights and pick the best option for your current character development. Sadly we don't have same choices for another color groups.
Conclusion: Solid moves, i like them

Image Cleave
Cleave is a move that deals most damage. Good choice if you have both good character and gear, otherwise it's a bit too weak. Anyway, if during a fight you will have a situation when you have 60%+ Opening and 6 IP and a time to use it, you can deal a lot of damage. Practically i wasn't successfull with it (while using it as main damage source), but my character and gear are below average for the current world state. Also this is a perfect move for the mass fights.
Conclusion: I think this move is too heavy to count on it (in 1v1), but it is a nice situational move wich can win you a fight. Nice addition for any red/blue decks

Image Sting
Solid move for green and blue decks. Seems ok to me
Conclusion: Nice power move for green-blue burst decks

Image Uppercut
I'm not sure if it is a bug that this move gives yellow opening and requires green-blue. Anyway currently i didn't find any use for it. Low attack weight, low grievous damage, strange sequencing... green-blue decks have another good moves instead
Conclusion: If you really want this type of sequence mechanics then you should buff value strongly. Make it 22.5% yellow opening OR make it 20 CD and 30% grievous damage

Image Go for the Jugular
Actually i think this move costs too much. Maybe it will fit early-game decks, when people don't have good weapons, but right now it doesn't look great. There are better "power" moves for both red and green groups then this one
Conclusion: Not really usable

Image Flex
I don't see any use for Flex. For the blue "spam" you have Left Hook wich is pretty much the same, but deals damage. You will not use it for defense (you have AE, and even without it, it is much worse against red/yellow-based decks because you don't deal damage while increasing opening. The restoration values are also meh...)
Conclusion: I don't really like the idea of this move, it doesn't fit the playstyle. It's too weak for "burst" strategies and has better version for "pressure"

Image Kick
Solid "spam" move for yellow group. A bit slow, but deals some damage, mostly constistens in "pressure" decks
Conclusion: Good move on the line with chop and punch (maybe a bit weaker)

Image Haymaker
I have a strange feeling about this move. It should be better spam move then Kick, but gives less opening and slower. Damage doesn't matter that much when you use it for spam at low openings. It is also too weak to be a power move
Conclusion: I didn't find a spot for this move. I think it will be an interesting idea to reduce it's coldown to 35, increase damage to 25 and reduce yellow opening to 5%. The concept is "fast ua-based power move that MUST be chained with opening-gainers to avoid stupid spam".

Image Sideswipe
This is a nice move, it is compared to Chop in terms of value. Currently it can be used as power move for the yellow monodeck if you have really good weapon
Conclusion: Not that straight-forward move, but it can fit certain type of decks

Image Raven's Bite
Garbage. Just compare it with Sting: 1 more IP, -15% damage, +5 cooldown, strict weapon requirements. It has dual openings but it cannot benefit from it because of slow cooldown. I don't see any single reason to use it.
Conclusion: Reconsider this please and make yellow deck great again. I like the idea of double opening, but you should reduce cooldown and IP cost. Maybe 2+2 IP and 45 cooldown will worth it

Image Quick Barrage
Interesting move, maybe slightly out of meta because you always have Take Aim, but i feel good about it
Conclusion: Can be used in red decks, it's not that bad

Image Knock its teeth out
I think it is the strongest offensive skill in the game right now. Perfect choice for red burst monodeck. It costs only 1 IP but it has amazing opening (greater then most of the spam moves), strong base damage, high % grievous damage and low cooldown.
Conclusion: This is the primary skill for #1 deck in my rating. I think the opening value should be lowered to 15, damage to 25

4. Utility Moves

Image Opportunity Knocks
Nice utility move. I didn't find it very effective in 1v1 because of high cooldown, but it is primary skill for the mass fights
Conclusion: I think it's fine

Image Steal Thunder
At first i thought this is the move to counter things like AE and other strong IP-based moves. But it turns out that the amount of IPs it steal depends on the opening bar. Practically i was able to steal 1 IP out of 3 uses of this skill
Conclusion: This skill should be reworked so it will be a solid way to remove IPs

Image Take Aim
The primary skill for gainig IPs for any decks. Maxed version has 26 CD, pretty fast. With this skill other skills like Quick Barrage or Low Blow are not really in the meta
Conclusion: Maybe it is too fast, but i'd rather say another IP-gaining moves are too weak

Image Think
It is better then Take Aim in terms of IP gaining rate, but you need 4 IPs to start use it. Right now you can take it even with Take Aim, because we have a lot of deck points and not really much usable moves
Conclusion: Nice idea and it kinda should be combined with Low Blow / Quick Barrage / Watch its Moves, but you don't have that much moves to throw away Take Aim

5. Maneuvers

Image To Arms
Image Chin Up
Basic defense stances, nothing else to say. Mostly used by b12 carriers, because otherwise you can equip shield. I also think that Chin Up is weak, because melee is easier to stack with gildings and you need less to have better defenses with Shield Up. The b12 carriers usually already have a lot of melee so they will use To Arms over Chin Up anyway
Conclusion: Can we have nice side-effect for Chin Up please?

Image Bloodlust
Nice stance for burst decks and for hunting :)
Conclusion: I think it has it's own use, seems balanced to me

Image Death or Glory
I didn't find any use for it. The idea is that you will gain 1 IP if your stats twice better. But why the hell do you need it in that case? The Bloodlust will give you the same effect and it is not that situational
Conclusion: I think it is too weak because of this delta-dependency. I'd rather see the reversed version of this move, for example it gives (2/delta - 1) IPs. So if you are weaker you will be able to gain free IPs (but it also should have 100% block weight, otherwise it will also be too weak)

Image Oak Stance
I didn't find a real use for it in 1v1 but it's ok in some situations. Also it is great in mass fights
Conclusion: A usable move, seems fine

Image Parry
I think it is too weak for any type of decks. The Bloodlust will give you the same effect and it is not situational
Conclusion: I think it should be buffed. Maybe 8% opening?

6. Deck Archetypes
1. Red burst KITO deck (30 points - 5,5,5,5,5,1,1,1,1,1)
Image
Switch to Oak Stance or be in Shield Up at start, spam Take Aim, gain 20-30 IPs, switch to Bloodlust and spam Knock Its Teeth Out. At some point you can use Quick Barrage to remain pressure and restock IPs. If you see a good chance you can throw a random Cleave. AE and Dash for defense, one copy of Sideswipe to play around Dash

2. Blue-Grean burst Sting deck (30 points - 5,5,5,5,5,1,1,1,1,1)
Image Left Hook + Take Aim version
Image Low Blow + Think version
Same strategy here. Gain IPs first, then switch to Bloodlust and deal damage. You will chain both green and blue attacks (blue opening should be always greater so dash will remove green). AE and Dash for defense, one copy of Cleave to deal big damage if you have a chance

3. Yellow pressure Sideswipe deck (30 points - 5,5,5,5,5,1,1,1,1,1)
Image
Weaker then first two decks, but fun anyway :)
You don't need IP's here, just have 3-6 points for AE. Gain solid opening with Kick and spam Sideswipe. You can try to use Steal Thunder to counter your enemy, use punch to play around Dash
P.S. This is the prototype of the burst Raven's Bite deck, but RB is too weak right now...

7. Mass fights
The main idea is that you want all your party to have single-type decks, so you will have max influence. The strategy is to gain a lot of IPs, then choose a target and use an Opportunity Knock and then Power move to deal maximum amount of damage. If 3-4 players will do it at once they will destroy an opponent. I think you'd rather not use low-defense stances like Bloodlust during the mass fights

Some deck archetypes (*since my character was the weakest during all test mass fights, my decks are rather supportive, then damage-dealing):
1. Red Cleave (30 points - 5,5,5,5,5,1,1,1,1,1)
Image
Use Take Aim to gain 4 IPs, then switch to Thing. KITO to fill starting opening, OK to increase it, Cleave to deal damage. AE/Dash for defense, Sideswipe to play around Dash (You may also want to use Rip Apart instead, i just don't have it yet)

2. Green Sting (30 points - 5,5,5,5,5,1,1,1,1,1)
Image
Pretty much the same, just another damage moves

8. Overall Conclusion
I like this combat system, it is more dynamic then the old one. I like that we can build different deck archetypes right now. I hope some moves will be fixed to be actual in the current meta.
I also would like to see more "control" moves like Dash, Steal Thunder (playable version), the old move from the legacy that set enemie's attack bar to 0 (Evil Eye?). I want more 2-type defense moves with side effects (we actually need special move for every combination of 2 defense types). I would like to see few more power moves (especially for yellow deck).
The run-run-run is still a problem. I think you should create a move like "Reduce target's movement speed by 10%, debuff your defenses by 50%". I think we need this just to test how it will work, no need to make it permanent if it will be bad.
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Re: New Combat Feedback

Postby Jesus_Smith_Nandez » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:20 pm

How do you gain IP in the green/blue deck with only think?
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Re: New Combat Feedback

Postby MrPunchers » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:24 pm

Jesus_Smith_Nandez wrote:How do you gain IP in the green/blue deck with only think?

Think and then Low Blows since they give 1 IP.
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Re: New Combat Feedback

Postby iamahh » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:42 pm

i tested against ants and didn't understand, when i started taking damage i just punched them to death... thanks to lots of armor... combat needs an in-game tutorial when it's finished
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Re: New Combat Feedback

Postby Jesus_Smith_Nandez » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:18 am

Most of ur decks pretty much suck tbh bro. Tried the sting one and got myself destroyed. Take this advice: most of the maneuvers are garbage. Don't even waste points on them, they're not worth it. Just stick with 1 chin up/ shield up/ to arms. The cooldown to switch and the drawbacks involved, not to mention they are only triggered by attacks makes them suicide.
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Re: New Combat Feedback

Postby Kaios » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:35 am

I disagree with your analysis of many of the skills here, for example how could you not find a use for uppercut? It's a low CD punch that gives a decent amount of reeling %, the damage it does is irrelevant since it's especially useful in combination with sideswipe. I'm not sure why you think flex is worse than left hook, with flex you get a lower CD and the backhanded and oppressive reduction. You also seem to think opp knock is useless in 1v1 which I don't agree with either, combine all these skills (uppercut, sideswipe, flex) with Raven's Bite another skill you think is garbage and in my opinion that's already a much more viable deck than any of the ones you have presented if you combine it with a good quality B12.
Last edited by Kaios on Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Combat Feedback

Postby MrPunchers » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:38 am

Jesus_Smith_Nandez wrote:Most of ur decks pretty much suck tbh bro. Tried the sting one and got myself destroyed. Take this advice: most of the maneuvers are garbage. Don't even waste points on them, they're not worth it. Just stick with 1 chin up/ shield up/ to arms. The cooldown to switch and the drawbacks involved, not to mention they are only triggered by attacks makes them suicide.

We should be able to switch from different defensive stances really quickly, like 15 CD.
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Re: New Combat Feedback

Postby Redlaw » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:30 am

I do thank you for the deck ideas they have come in handy with adjusting my style, but I am finding watch its moves is not that bad, though it is likely better in PvP then PVE it still helps vs some wild animals. Nothis is usless but its adding moves that help with everyones play style.
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Re: New Combat Feedback

Postby dafels » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:58 am

This guy thought that most of the combat skills in legacy haven are useless, sorry, but I couldn't read this seriously.
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Re: New Combat Feedback

Postby APXEOLOG » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:47 pm

dafels wrote:This guy thought that most of the combat skills in legacy haven are useless, sorry, but I couldn't read this seriously.

Wow, you are an example of a quality feedback, for sure
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