Hafen's Development: alternative vision

[NotJimmy97]

The most successful and most devoted players of the game have programmed outside software simply to avoid these experiences.

lol

Who are the biggest botters? AD? Dis? They've been around since the beginning. They objectively like the game more than almost everyone because they've been around forever. If they are botting part of the game, it's not because they're dicks, it's because that part of the game is not a game, it's work. If people wanted to do four hours of menial labor everyday, they'd volunteer at a soup kitchen.

I don't really see any issues as far as abuse of such a system would go but what does it change exactly? Any material costs involved would be circumvented by the players with the better scripts/clients anyways while everyone else who may actually need to take advantage of the implementation is forced to pay the LP cost and follow the rules you've outlined. Does that seem like it's leveling the playing field to you? Doesn't seem that way to me.

Easy solution: add an advantage to using these creatures. Make them work twice as fast as a normal player. Botters are limited in part by the number of clients their computer can physically run, and I'd bet that most players would rather sacrifice resources than double the amount of bots they're using.

But it doesn't even matter if a couple of enterprising botters decide to skirt the resource requirement, because the players using the altars will be effectively just as efficient. They can keep the same-sized farms, the same number of livestock, and the same mineral resources, and that's what this whole thread is about, right? Using this system, being a cheater means having more leather/fibre/metal stockpiled, not being a god among men. That sounds like an improvement to me.

[Kaios]

Who are the biggest botters? AD? Dis? They've been around since the beginning. They objectively like the game more than almost everyone because they've been around forever. If they are botting part of the game, it's not because they're dicks, it's because that part of the game is not a game, it's work. If people wanted to do four hours of menial labor everyday, they'd volunteer at a soup kitchen.

They objectively like certain aspects of the game you mean while most people just take it for what it is. There is absolutely nothing terribly grindy about farming your fields if they are of a reasonable size and you don't over do it to say a level where almost your entire village is comprised of farms. I already know what j&l's response to this would be and I'm quite certain they would argue that it's the mechanics themselves that need adjusting and not the entire core concept of the game. Do I think there could be ways to improve them without implementing a bot creation system in to the game? Absolutely I do, for example you can already area select for farming so if they simply include drinking to that it would already be improved significantly. Stockpiling/putting crops to trough isn't an issue I've ever really been concerned about but I suppose they could make some changes to that too like the suggestion for a wearable crop basket.

But it doesn't even matter if a couple of enterprising botters decide to skirt the resource requirement, because the players using the altars will be effectively just as efficient. They can keep the same-sized farms, the same number of livestock, and the same mineral resources, and that's what this whole thread is about, right? Using this system, being a cheater means having more leather/fibre/metal stockpiled, not being a god among men. That sounds like an improvement to me.

The point is that no one should have to do so much monotonous activity in the first place, especially just to stay competitive. The only reason they do however is because of botters. I would never consider the right solution to be giving in to them and sinking down to their level because this game won't get better by taking away the very few activities that actually require some investment from the players. The suggestion in this thread is to literally remove character and infrastructure investments from the game and turn it in to some alt churning version of factorio and it's an entirely ridiculous suggestion.

[NotJimmy97]

They objectively like certain aspects of the game you mean while most people just take it for what it is. There is absolutely nothing terribly grindy about farming your fields if they are of a reasonable size and you don't over do it to say a level where almost your entire village is comprised of farms. I already know what j&l's response to this would be and I'm quite certain they would argue that it's the mechanics themselves that need adjusting and not the entire core concept of the game. Do I think there could be ways to improve them without implementing a bot creation system in to the game? Absolutely I do, for example you can already area select for farming so if they simply include drinking to that it would already be improved significantly. Stockpiling/putting crops to trough isn't an issue I've ever really been concerned about but I suppose they could make some changes to that too like the suggestion for a wearable crop basket.

What people should 'ideally' do, like owning fields of reasonable size, will not happen as long as owning bigger fields means more milk, more cheese, and better stats than the next guy. If they ought to bot, they will bot.

Adding drinking to the farming-selection tool will not fix the problem, because the player still has to watch the game. He has to be actively handling the process for four hours so that he can feed his cows. They will not do that, they will bot.

The point is that no one should have to do so much monotonous activity in the first place, especially just to stay competitive. The only reason they do however is because of botters. I would never consider the right solution to be giving in to them and sinking down to their level because this game won't get better by taking away the very few activities that actually require some investment from the players. The suggestion in this thread is to literally remove character and infrastructure investments from the game and turn it in to some alt churning version of factorio and it's an entirely ridiculous suggestion.

I disagree. The system I propose removes one part of the game, the part that is so simple and menial that you can accomplish it with one action and one storage point. There are still dozens of activities in the game that require time investment from the player. Hunting, foraging, construction, wall-building, crafting, traveling, trading, the list goes on and on. By adding in a rudimentary botting system, you can even the playing-field without turning the game into factorio.

[Kaios]

I have to agree with borka your mindset is very CREEPY

oh well this is true as well:

bro don't take it so seriously Jorb isn't gonna implement any of that anyways lmao

[NotJimmy97]

I have to agree with borka your mindset is very CREEPY

Eat shit, dude. I'm talking about something that players do every. single. world. Calling me 'creepy' because I'm talking about how players actually behave is just ignoring the actual problem.

I don't even bot. This entire world I operated a tiny little settlement with less than 500 farm-tiles available. I got up every morning and harvested carrots for an hour. But this is not typical, and if I wanted to compete with AD or Dis, I would bot.

If you're going to ignore how players actually behave in games like this, then do it. But don't call me 'creepy' just because you can't grasp the fact that competitive players will exploit every opportunity to progress that they can.

[Kaios]

If you're going to ignore how players actually behave in games like this, then do it. But don't call me 'creepy' just because you can't grasp the fact that competitive players will exploit every opportunity to progress that they can.

Oh believe me I have grasped that fact fully, I'd just rather the devs do something about it and no I don't mean this lame suggestion

[NotJimmy97]

If you're going to ignore how players actually behave in games like this, then do it. But don't call me 'creepy' just because you can't grasp the fact that competitive players will exploit every opportunity to progress that they can.

Oh believe me I have grasped that fact fully, I'd just rather the devs do something about it and no I don't mean this lame suggestion

Okay so, what's your actual solution? It's easy to say 'change the core game mechanics so people won't bot', but that's just weasel words. You don't actually have a concrete suggestion. If farming takes too many clicks, people will bot. If farming takes too many hours of a player's attention, people will bot.

I have a suggestion that actually evens the playing-field, but you don't like it because it 'stoops to their level' and because 'people ought to keep smaller farms'. Great, but you have no better idea. There is no magic wand for game development where you wave it and it fixes the problem. You have to actually come up with some sort of idea that either removes the incentive to bot, or allows players to reach the same level through in-game activities.

[Kaios]

You don't actually have a concrete suggestion.

I don't need any. I could give some and I have before but why? You're not really getting my perspective on this so maybe I can make it a little more clear. Villages like Dis, players like LadyGoo and Apxeolog and Pickard, they are never going to stop wanting to be the most efficient/best possible and they'll accomplish that through whatever means they can. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get rid of it, not sweep it under the rug but since the devs seem so reluctant to do that botting will remain a prevalent force in this game and the mechanics will continue to degrade and devolve until either the game dies or we're watching a bunch of scripts play the game for us. You might be comfortable with that but it's not the state I want to see this game in and I'll do whatever I can to prevent it.

It might be getting old hearing about it all the time at this point but honestly, this is an entirely different game these days from the one I played in world 3 and I'm not even referring to the graphics. Everything about the game now just feels... wrong and out of place. Not at all true to the ideals the devs seemed to hold to back then.

[NotJimmy97]

Villages like Dis, players like LadyGoo and Apxeolog and Pickard, they are never going to stop wanting to be the most efficient/best possible and they'll accomplish that through whatever means they can. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get rid of it, not sweep it under the rug but since the devs seem so reluctant to do that botting will remain a prevalent force in this game and the mechanics will continue to degrade and devolve until either the game dies or we're watching a bunch of scripts play the game for us. You might be comfortable with that but it's not the state I want to see this game in and I'll do whatever I can to prevent it.

Again, these are weasel words and you have absolutely no solution. The players are not the problem - if you can use a bot and out-pace the players who are not using bots, why would they not do it?

Maybe you're implying that we should ban all the botters. But that's not the problem. People will replace them and continue botting because it's the one sure-fire way to become a world power in this game. I said it earlier - if players ought to bot, they will bot.

It might be getting old hearing about it all the time at this point but honestly, this is an entirely different game these days from the one I played in world 3 and I'm not even referring to the graphics. Everything about the game now just feels... wrong and out of place. Not at all true to the ideals the devs seemed to hold to back then.

Boo hoo. Make a specific complaint or don't complain at all. "This all feels wrong and the botters make me feel sad" is not constructive criticism; it is whining.

[Kaios]

Boo hoo. Make a specific complaint or don't complain at all. "This all feels wrong and the botters make me feel sad" is not constructive criticism; it is whining.

I've given plenty more suggestions than you ever will, all far better than this idiotic idea for menial task performing minions. It's up to the devs to choose a solution.